1 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 2 3 4 5 6 ****************************************** 7 8 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 9 HOUSE FLOOR DEBATE CONCERNING 10 SENATE BILL 83 11 MAY 6, 2003 12 13 ****************************************** 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 THE FOLLOWING TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS, HOUSE FLOOR 21 DEBATE CONCERNING SENATE BILL 83, was transcribed by Leah 22 K. Osteen, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the 23 State of Texas, from a Texas Senate Media Services file 24 indicating the date of the proceedings to have taken 25 place on 05/06/03. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 2 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 THE CHAIR: The Chair lays out on third 2 reading Senate Bill 83. The Clerk will read the bill. 3 THE CLERK: SB 83, by Wentworth, relating 4 to the observance of one minute of silence during the 5 school day in public schools. 6 THE CHAIR: The Chair recognizes 7 Representative Branch. 8 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Members, this is 9 the bill that we passed yesterday on second reading. It 10 provides for a one-minute period of silence. It also 11 provides for a pledge to the U.S. flag and the -- a 12 pledge to the Texas flag. I move passage. 13 THE CHAIR: The following amendment, the 14 Clerk will read the amendment. 15 THE CLERK: Amendment by Hupp. 16 THE CHAIR: The Chair recognizes 17 Representative Hupp. 18 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Thank you. 19 Mr. Speaker, Members, the bill before you, 20 Senate Bill 83, forces every school in Texas to require 21 its students to say the pledge to the U.S. flag, the 22 Texas flag and require a minute -- not a moment, but a 23 full 60 seconds of silence so that students can pray, 24 meditate or stare at their shoelaces. 25 Now, while I commend Representative Branch Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 3 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 for his good intentions, I've got to tell you, I have 2 some serious problems with it, and you should, too. 3 How can I in good conscience talk about 4 local control? In fact, folks, like many of you, I 5 campaigned on local control. And then I'm going to turn 6 around and vote for this? Which is basically just 7 jamming another mandate down the throats of my local 8 people. 9 If you will look on your desk, there is a 10 sheet of paper that is a letter from Susan Weddington and 11 David Barton. Members, some of you don't care about 12 that, but I suspect some of your Republican members in 13 here do. 14 What that sheet of paper says is that 15 silent prayer is already permissible and most verbal 16 prayer is still permissible. In fact, the federal No 17 Child Left Behind Act passed by Congress contains a 18 specific provision that any public school not permitting 19 voluntary student prayer will actually lose federal 20 funding. 21 Secondly, although it's not really -- you 22 know, some of you might be sitting out there saying, 23 okay, it might not be needed, but it's sure not going to 24 hurt to go ahead and do this. And I've got to tell you, 25 that's where you're wrong. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 4 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 If the State of Texas declares that free 2 religious speech is protected as long as it's silent, we 3 will actually be limiting the rights of our students. 4 Put simply, silent speech is not free speech. 5 We may inadvertently be turning our 6 teachers into prayer police and subjecting them and our 7 school districts to lawsuits for violating the 8 establishment clause by establishing the type of 9 religious expression that the Legislature deems 10 permissible, which is silent prayer or meditation. 11 Members, despite my serious reservations 12 about this bill, my amendment is simple. The amendment 13 changes all of the "shalls" to "may." It simply makes it 14 permissive. 15 Now, my little local school district, they 16 have a moment of silence, they say the pledge. But I 17 believe in local control, folks, and I just -- I couldn't 18 live with just letting this bill go through. 19 I do not want to force another mandate on 20 our schools, and we are taking the chance that we're 21 actually violating the Constitution and subjecting our 22 schools to lawsuits, and I don't want to turn my teachers 23 into prayer police. 24 REPRESENTATIVE EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker? 25 THE CHAIR: Mr. Edwards, for what purpose? Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 5 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 REPRESENTATIVE EDWARDS: Will the lady 2 yield for a question? 3 THE CHAIR: Do you yield, Ms. Hupp? 4 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Absolutely. 5 THE CHAIR: The lady yields. 6 REPRESENTATIVE EDWARDS: Ms. Hupp, as you 7 know, I've been an advocate because I grew up in school 8 where we had prayer in schools. 9 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Yes, sir. So did I. 10 REPRESENTATIVE EDWARDS: And I -- and I put 11 an amendment on the education bill by the appropriation 12 bill that sessions, two ago, put in silent prayer in 13 schools. 14 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Yes. 15 REPRESENTATIVE EDWARDS: And your amendment 16 will change it from "may" to "shall" and make it 17 permissive? 18 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: No. It changes it 19 from "shall." His bill forces every school to do this. 20 My amendment changes it to make it permissive. It 21 changes it from "shall" to "may," that they may require 22 this. 23 REPRESENTATIVE EDWARDS: Why do you want it 24 to be "may" rather than "shall"? Don't you think that -- 25 well, let me just tell you some of the background, a Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 6 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 little bit, that when we were pushing this bill and going 2 around the state trying to get people to support prayer 3 back in school, we found that a number of undesirable 4 things happened when we took prayer out of school. 5 And even though there may be some folks who 6 disagree with me, I'm totally -- you know, I mean, there 7 were some things we just didn't -- we really -- just some 8 things happened that was really negative with our 9 children when that happened, and so -- 10 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: I'm in complete 11 agreement with you. 12 REPRESENTATIVE EDWARDS: And, you know, our 13 jails are so full of young men and women who some came 14 from backgrounds without two parents, or whatever the 15 reasons were, and I just feel like it made the difference 16 when we took it out of school, so -- 17 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: I agree with you, and 18 that is one of my concerns and apparently some concerns 19 of some attorneys that that is exactly what this bill 20 will do. It suddenly limits it to silent prayer as 21 opposed to what we actually have now, where children -- 22 it has been stated in -- with a U.S. Supreme Court 23 decision that they can pray out loud. 24 REPRESENTATIVE EDWARDS: Uh-huh. Well, 25 I wish -- Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 7 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: This bill may 2 actually limit that, Mr. Edwards. It may actually limit 3 their ability to pray in schools. Are you following what 4 I'm saying? 5 REPRESENTATIVE EDWARDS: I understand what 6 you're saying. I just -- I just wish that we really 7 could pray aloud. 8 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: We certainly need 9 some prayers in this House. Thank you. 10 REPRESENTATIVE CASTEEL: Mr. Speaker, would 11 the lady yield, please? 12 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Certainly. 13 THE CHAIR: Yield? The lady yields. 14 REPRESENTATIVE CASTEEL: Representative 15 Hupp, would you agree with me that it's important to set 16 the tone in your home at the dinner table or -- 17 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Absolutely. 18 REPRESENTATIVE CASTEEL: -- to set the tone 19 at school or to set the tone in the House of 20 Representatives here at the State Capitol or to set the 21 tone in a public school? 22 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: And that is exactly 23 why -- Ms. Casteel, that is exactly why we do set the 24 tone here in the House. And when I am at home and 25 participating in my local school district, I think it's Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 8 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 very important for me and the other parents to set the 2 tone in the local school, absolutely. 3 REPRESENTATIVE CASTEEL: All right. So 4 we're saying here as state reps that we believe that each 5 school district should set the tone -- not may, shall -- 6 shall set the tone with a moment of silence or a minute 7 of silence and to show reverence to the United States of 8 America and to the State of Texas by saying a pledge. 9 And it's just like at your own dinner table 10 when your youngster says, well, I don't want to drink 11 that milk. Well, I'm telling you, you're going to drink 12 that milk because that's good for you. 13 And I think it's good for the children of 14 the State of Texas to know that we are a reverent 15 society, regardless of religion. And would you not agree 16 with me that we should ask them to be reverent and 17 respectful of the United States by saying the pledge and 18 the Texas pledge and set the tone for the day? 19 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Ms. Casteel, I want 20 you to know I completely dis- -- or, excuse me, I 21 completely agree with you. I just feel that it should be 22 done -- those decisions should be made at the local 23 level. And, Ms. Casteel, that's what I ran on. Those 24 decisions should be made at the local level, absolutely 25 at the local level. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 9 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 I do go to my school board and I do talk to 2 my principals and my superintendents that I do want these 3 things done at the local level, but I do not want the 4 Texas Legislature to jam it down the local people's 5 throat. 6 REPRESENTATIVE CASTEEL: Let me just tell 7 you, then if you -- would you not agree with me if you 8 take that attitude, there is no reason for us to be here 9 whatsoever, because each day, would you not agree with 10 me, we are setting rules and regulations for society to 11 operate by? 12 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: I think we do our 13 best -- at least I'll tell you that certainly most of my 14 bills, I do my best to give people the freedom and the 15 liberty to make their own choices. 16 REPRESENTATIVE CASTEEL: Well, that TAKS 17 test, we shouldn't make them do it. One minute or -- 18 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: That's certainly a 19 question -- 20 REPRESENTATIVE CASTEEL: Yeah, well -- 21 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: -- that we're going 22 to be looking at in another bill, I believe, if Mr. 23 Grusendorf's bill ever comes to a vote. 24 REPRESENTATIVE CASTEEL: Wouldn't you agree 25 with me that we have an obligation to determine what is Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 10 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 best for the public schools in the State of Texas, 2 including how much math, how many credits they have to 3 have and to set the tone for the public schools each 4 morning with a prayer and the two pledges? 5 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: In my opinion, Ms. 6 Casteel -- and I certainly respect yours. In my opinion, 7 I believe this is micromanaging at its worst. 8 REPRESENTATIVE CASTEEL: Well, I 9 respectfully disagree with you, and I think that this 10 bill is a good bill as it stands. 11 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Move adoption, Mr. 12 Speaker. 13 THE CHAIR: The Chair recognizes Mr. Branch 14 against the amendment. 15 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: I appreciate Ms. 16 Hupp coming to and discussing this with me ahead of time, 17 and I would have liked to accept it, but I can't, because 18 the current law has the permissive language in there. 19 Now, Members, we currently -- under the 20 Education Code, we require schools to have a Texas flag 21 and a U.S. flag, but we don't require them to say the 22 pledge. We require that we should teach patriotism. So 23 there are certain things that -- values that the current 24 Education Code requires of our schools. 25 What this piece of legislation attempts to Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 11 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 do is to provide plenty of latitude and local control on 2 when in the school day the school districts can provide 3 for an opportunity to say the pledge -- 4 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Mr. Speaker? 5 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: -- to the U.S. flag 6 and to the Texas flag. In addition -- 7 THE CHAIR: Ms. Hupp, for what purpose? 8 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Will the gentleman 9 yield? 10 THE CHAIR: Do you yield, Mr. Branch? 11 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Let me finish, and 12 then I'll be happy to yield. 13 THE CHAIR: Not at this time, Ms. Hupp. 14 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: So it provides for 15 an opportunity for the school children to say the U.S. 16 pledge, the Texas pledge and have this minute of silence 17 when they can do anything they want; but it does set the 18 tone for the day that this is serious business, education 19 and that they can contemplate what they plan to do with 20 their day. 21 But we already -- to sort of sum up my 22 point on this, we already tell schools what to do in all 23 kinds of areas, as mentioned by Representative Casteel. 24 And, in fact, the current language requires that if 25 school districts have a moment of silence, that it has to Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 12 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 be at the beginning of the first class -- it currently 2 reads at the beginning of the first class of each school 3 day. 4 I happen to think that if you have a PE 5 class or an advisory or an athletics that I'd rather let 6 the local school districts make the decision on when 7 during the school day they -- 8 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Mr. Speaker? 9 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: -- say the pledge 10 or say the -- have their minute of silence. 11 I would -- glad to yield to my friend Ms. 12 Hupp. 13 THE CHAIR: Ms. Hupp, the gentleman yields. 14 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Thank you. 15 Mr. Branch, I want to -- I want to make 16 sure that you understand -- I'm sure you do -- that this 17 is not an argument over whether or not saying the pledge 18 of allegiance or having a moment of silence is a good 19 idea. You do understand that's not what the argument is 20 about, correct? 21 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Well, I -- 22 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Because I think -- I 23 certainly think it is a good idea. As I've said, we do 24 that -- my little first-grader does that in his local 25 school, and I think that's a great idea. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 13 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: But, Ms. Hupp, did 2 you -- let me finish. Let me answer your question. 3 It is about that, so I take a little bit of 4 issue with you, because currently in the Code we do not 5 direct that. Like I say, the current Code says that 6 schools have to have these flags. They have to have and 7 fly a U.S. flag. 8 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: But we're not talking 9 about flags. 10 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: We are. We're 11 talking about pledge allegiances to the flag. So they 12 have to have these flags. And under the current law, 13 they are not required to say the pledge. So it's not 14 happening. 15 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Mr. Branch, you've 16 seen the letters that Susan Wettington put out, correct? 17 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: I've heard of them, 18 but I also just took a phone call and said they are not 19 opposing this bill and are not supporting this amendment. 20 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Well, I've got to 21 tell you, that's not what I was told. So that's 22 interesting. 23 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Well -- 24 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Let me tell you what 25 this -- what this does say in here. It says -- in case Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 14 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 you haven't heard it. It says that should a student pray 2 aloud, which happens in some local schools currently, 3 this law could bring grounds for bringing legal action 4 against that student because of what you pointed out, 5 that Texas law permits prayer if -- if it is silent. 6 Are you aware that that's -- that's a 7 possibility? 8 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Yeah, can you look 9 at the bottom of that page, perhaps at the bottom. What 10 does the last sentence of I believe it's page 2 say, from 11 Mr. Barton and Ms. Wettington? 12 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: I'm sorry, I don't 13 know which part of it you're talking about. 14 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Where they have a 15 little statement about that this is not in support of or 16 opposed to -- 17 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: It does not -- yes. 18 It does not -- this particular thing, when it came out, 19 was not in support of or opposing any -- 20 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: And I think -- 21 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: -- specific bill. 22 Are you aware also that -- 23 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: At the bottom of 24 page 2, it says the attached briefing paper is not 25 intended as either support -- Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 15 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Yes, that's -- 2 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: -- or opposition. 3 That's the part -- 4 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Yes, that's correct. 5 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Is that not on 6 yours? 7 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: That's correct. 8 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Is that not on 9 yours? 10 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: No, but I know it's 11 on here somewhere. It's not on my page 2. 12 Do you know that President Bush -- 13 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Suzanna -- 14 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: -- supports verbal 15 student prayers and that there is a concern again about 16 this limiting it, only silent prayer? 17 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: All this bill does 18 is tries to have a neutral space, a period of silence. 19 It doesn't direct any activity. 20 And, Suzanna, there's a different section 21 of the Code. That's Section 25 that they're referring 22 to. This is Section 28 of the Education Code. This is 23 the -- 24 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: I understand that. 25 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: -- school day Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 16 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 section. We're leaving that -- 2 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: I understand that. 3 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: We're leaving that 4 whole section alone. That's a different argument. 5 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: But, Dan, the very 6 fact that there is some argument here is concern for my 7 local school district that they may end up with a lawsuit 8 against them. See, that's the problem. 9 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: No, that -- 10 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: The fact that there 11 is an argument there is the concern. 12 Are you aware that it says here that one of 13 the critical questions -- 14 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: That's a 15 different -- that's a different section of the Code. 16 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: -- Mr. Branch, that 17 one of the critical questions for the proposed 18 legislation is whether the Legislature should create two 19 tiers of free speech, one that treats faith expressions 20 differently from all other manners of expression by 21 mandating that faith expressions be silent? 22 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Like I say, that's 23 a different section of the Code. I appreciate their 24 concerns. I have addressed them on the phone call. 25 There's a confusion here. That's a different section of Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 17 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 the Education Code. 2 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: Mr. Speaker? 3 THE CHAIR: Mr. Christian, for what 4 purpose? 5 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: Will the 6 gentleman yield? 7 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Be happy to yield. 8 Be happy -- 9 THE CHAIR: The gentleman yields. 10 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: Mr. 11 Representative, my concern is -- I believe you're aware 12 of the -- 13 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Is this to gig me 14 on my first bill, Mr. Christian? 15 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: This probably 16 would be, yeah. But -- 17 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: That's quite an 18 introduction. 19 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: -- my question 20 is, have you attended any or read or visited with any of 21 your school administrators and school board members, that 22 because of the threat of a lawsuit or the threat of 23 bringing suit against them, that when the responsibility 24 is left on that local school board's shoulders for 25 potential lawsuits that they advocate the responsibility Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 18 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 by saying no, we won't allow prayer here? 2 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: No. In fact, this 3 has been run by numerous constitutional scholars. And so 4 we have an opt-out. The only concern was the opt-out 5 language, which we have. So if a student doesn't want to 6 say the pledges, he has the ability to opt out. 7 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: But understand, 8 I think a lot of our school boards that I'm familiar with 9 are opting out of allowing the prayer, requiring the 10 prayer, whatever. 11 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: But this is just a 12 period of silence, a one-minute period of silence. It is 13 not -- 14 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: But the 15 amendment. I'm referring to the amendment. The 16 amendment is saying we require it as compared to it is an 17 option. 18 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Okay. 19 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: My concern is -- 20 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Oh, I got you. 21 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: -- do you not 22 feel that by allowing it to be an option, it will 23 continue to be not observed in any form; whereas, we will 24 take responsibility from a potential lawsuit perhaps at 25 the state level when a school board or administrator Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 19 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 says, well, it's out of my hands, the State has told me 2 we have to? Thus, do you not agree it will be more 3 potentially likely to be done by people who desire now 4 for it to be done if this amendment is defeated? 5 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: I agree with my 6 good friend. And I also would say that it takes us back 7 to where we are right now, and there's debates over -- 8 over those issues and whether or not you have local 9 control. This actually frees up a school district to 10 institute these -- these three items but at a time that's 11 flexible, that makes sense. 12 I mean, sometimes you have a -- you have PE 13 class at the beginning of the first -- and it's not 14 appropriate. 15 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: Right, but I 16 am ... 17 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: But I -- I agree 18 with your point on the -- on the exposure and the 19 liability. 20 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: I am correct 21 that if this amendment goes on, we're right back where 22 we've been for years, and it's potentially safer for a 23 school locally not to allow a moment of silence, a pledge 24 to the flag or a prayer if it continues to be an option. 25 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Right. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 20 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: Which means if 2 we do -- 3 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: And that's -- 4 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: -- this 5 amendment, it doesn't change current rule. 6 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: And we've found 7 that all kinds of classes out there were not saying the 8 pledge. That was the instigation. 9 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: Okay. Thank 10 you, sir. 11 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: My good friend Mr. 12 Merritt wanted me to ask you -- I'm not sure I can ask 13 questions, but this is on the 1776. The -- that's a 14 current bill that we're working on on content, which -- 15 which is also in the Education Code. 16 REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES: Mr. Speaker? 17 THE CHAIR: What purpose, Mr. Hughes? 18 REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES: Will the gentleman 19 yield for a question? 20 THE CHAIR: Mr. Branch, will you yield? 21 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Be happy to yield. 22 Mr. Branch yields. 23 REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES: Mr. Branch, may I 24 ask you a couple of questions about the 25 constitutionality? This may have been addressed, but to Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 21 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 make sure we're clear, am I correct that the Supreme 2 Court of the United States has held that a mandatory 3 moment of silence which allows for prayer is permissible 4 constitutionally? 5 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: That's my 6 understanding. 7 REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES: And so your bill in 8 its current form would meet constitutional muster? 9 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: That's what I'm 10 told. 11 REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES: I think the Supreme 12 Court's wrong and they shouldn't even make us go that 13 far. But clearly under even their standard your bill is 14 okay even without the amendment; is that correct? 15 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: I'm sorry, I didn't 16 hear the last. 17 REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES: I was just opining 18 that the Supreme Court's wrong, but even if we go by 19 their rules, your bill without the amendment is okay 20 constitutionally; is that correct? 21 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: It's my 22 understanding. And although I might occasionally 23 disagree with the Supreme Court, I respect it as the rule 24 of law of the land, as I know you do. 25 REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES: As I do. Thank you Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 22 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 for pointing that out. Thank you, Mr. Branch. 2 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Mr. Speaker? 3 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Mr. Hochberg. 4 THE CHAIR: Mr. Hochberg, for what purpose? 5 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Will the 6 gentleman yield for a question, please? 7 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: I'd be happy to 8 yield. 9 THE CHAIR: The gentleman yields. 10 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Be happy to yield 11 to my good friend Mr. Hochberg. 12 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Thank you, Mr. 13 Branch. I just want to ask you one question. 14 Do you think that we ought to let a school 15 board -- 16 THE CHAIR: Representative Janet [sic] 17 Denny raised the point of order. The gentleman's time 18 has expired. Point of order is well taken. Sustained. 19 The Chair recognizes Mr. Bohac. 20 REPRESENTATIVE BOHAC: Members, Mr. 21 Speaker, I ask that we support Dan Branch by opposing 22 this amendment. This is a great bill, and I move that we 23 table this amendment. 24 THE CHAIR: The Chair recognizes Ms. Hupp 25 just to close on her amendment. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 23 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Members, again, 2 just -- just to be very brief on this, it's not an 3 argument about whether or not the pledge of allegiance is 4 a good thing. It's not an argument about whether or not 5 a moment of silence is a good thing. It's an excellent 6 thing, and it's something my little first-grader does in 7 his school. But I campaigned on local control. This is 8 just one more thing we're jamming onto our local people 9 and saying you must do this. 10 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Mr. Speaker, would 11 the lady yield? 12 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Certainly. 13 THE CHAIR: The lady yields. 14 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Ms. Hupp -- 15 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Yes, Mr. Burnam? 16 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: -- is the entire 17 intent of your moving this from "shall" to "may" is to 18 enable this body to express to all ISDs that we really 19 think you should do this; however, we're not telling you 20 you have to do it, because we really are committed to 21 local control -- 22 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Yes. 23 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: -- when local 24 control seems feasible and logical? 25 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Yes. And more than Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 24 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 anything -- well, I can't even say more than anything. 2 Local control for me is the number one issue, but the 3 secondary issue that -- again, I'm not an attorney, but 4 the secondary issue according to this letter really does 5 seem to be a fear of lawsuits if we do put this in and 6 some kid accidentally prays out loud at some point. Then 7 somebody's going to be in trouble. 8 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Well, whether or 9 not that may happen in eventuality, it's probably true 10 that we pass any number of unconstitutional bills into 11 law every session, whether we intend to or not. 12 But -- but what we can do here, what we can 13 control for is we can honor our commitment to our school 14 boards to support local control, because this really 15 doesn't have any real impact on educational opportunity 16 or training. What it really is, is about cultural 17 issues. Isn't that right? 18 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Well, I think that -- 19 that certainly that argument could be made. It's just -- 20 to me this is a simple issue. It should be local 21 control. Every -- maybe not every one of us, but darned 22 near every one of us in here campaigned on that. 23 I didn't say I believe in local control 24 unless it's something I really, really want you to do, 25 and then I'm going to make sure that we mandate it at the Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 25 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 State of Texas level. 2 I didn't do that. I said I trust you guys. 3 I trust your parents. I trust your parents to make sure 4 that you guys do the right thing. 5 REPRESENTATIVE KOLKHORST: Mr. Speaker, 6 will the lady yield? 7 THE CHAIR: Ms. Kolkhorst -- Ms. Hupp, do 8 you yield? 9 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: I would be happy to 10 yield unless Ms. Kolkhorst wants to go ahead and do what 11 all of the Members are asking for, which is vote. 12 THE CHAIR: The lady yields, Ms. Kolkhorst. 13 REPRESENTATIVE KOLKHORST: Just one 14 quick -- I know that we had this argument about local 15 control and the things that we want to do and give local 16 control to our local school boards, but -- and sometimes 17 I think we do pick and choose, Ms. Hupp. Like, do you 18 remember House Bill 1776 from last session? 19 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Not off the top of my 20 head. 21 REPRESENTATIVE KOLKHORST: It was a 22 mandatory -- it was a mandator- -- we mandated that we -- 23 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Oh, yeah, I know -- I 24 know the one you're talking about. (inaudible) the Bill 25 of Rights day? Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 26 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 REPRESENTATIVE KOLKHORST: What's that? 2 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: Wasn't that the Bill 3 of Rights day? 4 REPRESENTATIVE KOLKHORST: It mandated that 5 our school children study about the Constitution. It was 6 a mandate, that we said you shall study the Constitution. 7 And we look at -- 8 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: That's an academic 9 issue, yeah. 10 REPRESENTATIVE KOLKHORST: And we look at 11 first responders, you know, and House Bill 9 this 12 session, which was carried by Kino Flores, and it said 13 that the Texas first responders, they shall be regularly 14 observed by ceremonies in public schools. And so I think 15 that we do sometimes mandate things that we feel 16 appropriate. 17 And so I just want to say, with all due 18 respect to you, I know that we believe in local control 19 and it's something that we, you know, sometimes skate 20 back and forth on, but I just want to remind you of those 21 two particular instances of which I think we all voted 22 for in this House. 23 REPRESENTATIVE HUPP: I understand, but 24 I've got to tell you, I think there's a big difference 25 between academic issues and something like what's in this Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 27 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 bill, a local control issue that may put them in jeopardy 2 of a lawsuit. 3 So with that, Members, I ask you to vote no 4 on the motion to table. 5 THE CHAIR: Ms. Hupp sends up an amendment. 6 Mr. Bohac moves to table. 7 REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIAN: Mr. Speaker, has 8 she yield to the floor? 9 THE CHAIR: Yes, she's yielded to the 10 floor. 11 The Chair recognizes Mr. Bohac. 12 REPRESENTATIVE BOHAC: Members, I withdraw 13 my motion to table. 14 THE CHAIR: Ms. Hupp sends up an amendment. 15 The question occurs on the adoption of the amendment. 16 All those in favor vote aye, all those opposed vote no. 17 It's a division vote. 18 Members, the question is on the adoption of 19 the amendment. (Inaudible) all voted, have all voted. 20 Strike the board. The motion fails to adopt. 21 The following amendment, the Clerk read the 22 amendment. 23 THE CLERK: Amendment by Dukes. 24 REPRESENTATIVE DUKES: Mr. Speaker, 25 Members, I was reading through the bill and noticed the Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 28 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 section -- or the lines that read that this moment of 2 silence, pledge of allegiance would take place at the 3 beginning of the first of each class school day during 4 which a student would do these things was stricken from 5 the bill, and the bill didn't clarify if this would take 6 place once a day, or in the case of middle school and 7 high school, every single class period. And through 8 discussions with Representative Branch, he indicated that 9 his intent was that this only take place once a day. 10 So this is a clarifying amendment that 11 would strike the wording of "during each school day" and 12 substitute "once during each school day." And I would 13 assume that this should be acceptable to the author 14 because he told me his intent was that this would be only 15 once a day. 16 THE CHAIR: Chair recognizes Mr. Branch, 17 against the amendment. 18 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: The current 19 language, as I -- as I think I mentioned earlier, says 20 that a school district may provide for a period of 21 silence at the beginning of the first class of each 22 school day during which a student may reflect or 23 meditate. And so I will move to table. This language 24 currently that we have allows the flexibility, so I move 25 to table. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 29 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 THE CHAIR: Ms. Dukes, for what purpose? 2 REPRESENTATIVE DUKES: Will the gentleman 3 yield? 4 THE CHAIR: Will you yield, Mr. Branch? 5 The gentleman yields. 6 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Be happy to yield 7 to my friends. 8 REPRESENTATIVE DUKES: Representative 9 Branch, can you indicate in this bill where it is clear 10 that in the case of middle schools and high schools where 11 they have four, five, six periods per day that it's only 12 once a day and not once each class period or any given 13 term? 14 I understand your desires for giving the 15 flexibility, that they can choose when it occurs, but 16 where in the bill does it indicate that it's only once a 17 day? 18 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: It says that during 19 each school day at each school in the district, the board 20 of trustees of each district shall require students to do 21 the following: A, B and C. And so that's -- 22 REPRESENTATIVE DUKES: How many classes 23 does a student have in middle school, how many classes 24 does a student have in high school per day? 25 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Depends on -- Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 30 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 sometimes six, seven. Depending on the school district 2 you're in, you can have various classes. 3 REPRESENTATIVE DUKES: And where in that 4 line does it state that it's only once a day? It says 5 each school day -- 6 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: It doesn't say -- 7 REPRESENTATIVE DUKES: -- but it does not 8 indicate -- 9 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: You're right. 10 You're correct. You're correct. It doesn't say only 11 once each day. It does not. It just says during the day 12 they shall do A, B and C. 13 REPRESENTATIVE DUKES: So what's the 14 problem with clarifying that it's only once a day? 15 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: We will accept your 16 amendment. 17 REPRESENTATIVE DUKES: Thank you for being 18 so kind and generous. 19 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Okay. All right. 20 All right. Can we move passage? Accept the amendment. 21 Accept the amendment. 22 THE CHAIR: Ms. Dukes sends up an 23 amendment. The amendment is acceptable to the author. 24 Is there objection? The Chair hears none. The amendment 25 is adopted. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 31 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 The Chair recognizes Mr. Branch. 2 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: I move passage. 3 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Mr. Speaker, will 4 the gentleman -- 5 THE CHAIR: Mr. Hochberg, for what purpose? 6 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Will the 7 gentleman yield for a question, please? Just briefly, 8 Mr. Branch. 9 THE CHAIR: The gentleman yields. 10 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Happy to yield. 11 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Thank you. Thank 12 you, Mr. Branch. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 13 Mr. Branch, which section of the Code are 14 you amending? It's 28-something, right? 15 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Section 28, that's 16 correct. 17 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Okay. Would 18 you -- you wouldn't be too excited about the school 19 boards waiving what you're passing, would you? 20 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Excuse me? 21 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: It wouldn't be 22 your intent that school boards be able to waive what the 23 House is presumably about to pass? 24 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: It wouldn't be my 25 intent that they have the ability to waive that? Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 32 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: I'm sorry. It 2 would not be your -- it would not be your intent for them 3 to have the ability to waive this section, would it? 4 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Generally, it 5 would -- generally, that would be the case. 6 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Under -- under -- 7 are there conditions under which you would consider it 8 appropriate for a school board to waive your section? 9 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Well, the general 10 directive I think is a good one, obviously, in supporting 11 the bill. The -- there are -- there is flexibility 12 within the directive, and there's also opt-out 13 opportunities. 14 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Okay. 15 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Right. 16 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Okay. Thank you. 17 Thank you, Mr. Branch. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 18 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: Thank you. 19 Move passage, Mr. Speaker. 20 THE CHAIR: Members, a motion occurs on the 21 final passage of Senate Bill 83. All those in favor vote 22 aye, all those opposed vote no. It's a record vote. The 23 Clerk will ring the bell. 24 (Bell ringing.) 25 THE CHAIR: Have all Members voted? All Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 33 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 Members voted. 2 There being 132 ayes, 4 nays, 1 person not 3 voting, Senate Bill 83 finally passed. 4 Mr. Burnam. 5 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Mr. Speaker, 6 parliamentary inquiry. 7 THE CHAIR: State your inquiry. 8 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Mr. Speaker, would 9 it be appropriate to ask Representative Branch to lead 10 the Texas House of Representatives in the pledge of 11 allegiance to the Texas flag tomorrow morning when we 12 start our business day? 13 REPRESENTATIVE BRANCH: I'd be so honored. 14 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: I'm sure we'll all 15 be better Texans for it. 16 THE CHAIR: That's not a proper inquiry. 17 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: It's not a proper 18 inquiry, Mr. Speaker? 19 THE CHAIR: No, it's not. 20 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Mr. Speaker? 21 THE CHAIR: Mr. Burnam. 22 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Could we suspend 23 the rules and allow the entire House the opportunity to 24 request Mr. Branch to lead us in the pledge of allegiance 25 to the Texas flag tomorrow morning on the start of the Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 34 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 session? 2 THE CHAIR: It's not a proper inquiry, Mr. 3 Burnam. 4 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Thank you, Mr. 5 Speaker. 6 (End of proceedings relating to Senate Bill 7 83.) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 Transcript - House Floor Debate - SB 83 1 STATE OF TEXAS ) 2 COUNTY OF TARRANT ) 3 I, LEAH K. OSTEEN, Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter, duly qualified in and for the State of Texas, 5 certify that the foregoing Transcript of Proceedings, 6 House Floor Debate Concerning Senate Bill 83, was 7 transcribed by me from a Texas Senate Media Services file 8 indicating the date of the proceedings to have taken 9 place on 05/06/03, and that the Transcript of 10 Proceedings, House Floor Debate Concerning Senate Bill 11 83, is a true record of the Texas Media Services file 12 from which it was transcribed. 13 14 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND OF OFFICE on this the 15 31st day of August, 2006. 16 ____________________________ LEAH K. OSTEEN, CSR No. 3916 17 Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas 18 Certification expires 12/31/06 19 Osteen Reporting Services Firm Registration No. 392 20 313 Northglen Drive Hurst, Texas 76054-3024 21 (817) 498-9990 (telephone) (817) 498-0410 (facsimile) 22 23 24 25