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                         Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83




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          8             TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS CONCERNING

          9             COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE OF SENATE BILL 83

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         11           ******************************************

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         19        THE FOLLOWING TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS CONCERNING

         20   COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE OF SENATE BILL 83 was transcribed by

         21   Leah K. Osteen, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for

         22   the State of Texas, from a Texas Senate Media Services

         23   file indicating the date of the proceedings to have taken

         24   place on 04/09/03.

         25


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          1                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  The Chair

          2   recognizes Senator Wentworth for a motion on Committee

          3   Substitute to Senate Bill 83.

          4                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Thank you, Mr.

          5   President.

          6                 I move to suspend the regular order of

          7   business to take up and consider the Committee Substitute

          8   for Senate Bill 83.  This bill would require Texas public

          9   school students to recite the pledge of allegiance to the

         10   United States flag, the Texas flag, and to observe one

         11   minute of silence.

         12                 We passed this bill yesterday on second

         13   reading.  This is third reading, Mr. President.  I move

         14   to suspend the regular order of business.

         15                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Senator

         16   Hinojosa, for what purpose do you rise, sir?

         17                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  To ask a question of the

         18   author.

         19                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Will Senator

         20   Wentworth yield?

         21                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Yes.

         22                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  The Senator

         23   yields.

         24                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Be happy to yield.

         25                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Senator, what else does


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          1   the bill do besides requiring a minute of silence and

          2   asking for a pledge of allegiance?  It also asks for

          3   prayer; does it not?

          4                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  No, sir, it doesn't

          5   require prayer at all.  It gives students the option

          6   between meditation, reflection, prayer, or anything else

          7   that's -- that doesn't distract other students.

          8                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Well, if you look at

          9   page 1, line 1 -- 37, it says pray; does it not?

         10                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Tell me again.  Where

         11   are you talking about?

         12                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  If you look at page 1 --

         13                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Yes, sir.

         14                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  -- line 37, it says

         15   reflect, comma, pray.

         16                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Yes, sir.  I said,

         17   well, reflect, pray, meditate, or engage in any other

         18   silent activity that's not likely to distract.  That's --

         19   That's the answer I just gave you without reading it from

         20   the bill.

         21                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  And it --

         22                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  It's four things.

         23                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Okay.

         24                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Four things.  Reflect,

         25   meditate, pray, or engage in any other silent activity


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          1   that doesn't distract other students.  So there are four

          2   things you may do.  And, frankly, we won't know what

          3   students are doing because it is silent.

          4                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Well, what you're doing

          5   is you're mandating prayer in the schools; are you not?

          6                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  We are not mandating

          7   prayer in the schools, Senator Hinojosa.

          8                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Has --

          9                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Obviously we're not.

         10                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Has the United States

         11   Supreme Court ruled that it's unconstitutional to mandate

         12   prayer in schools?

         13                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  The United States

         14   Supreme Court ruled in 1962 that audible denominational

         15   prayer in public schools is outlawed, and they have not

         16   changed their opinion, nor will this bill.

         17                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Well --

         18                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  This bill does not

         19   mandate prayer in public schools.

         20                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Of course it does --

         21                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Of course it doesn't.

         22                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  -- Senator Wentworth.

         23                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  A clear reading of the

         24   bill, Senator.  And you just pointed out exactly the

         25   line.  Reflect, pray, meditate, or engage in any other


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          1   silent activity that is not likely to interfere with or

          2   distract another student.

          3                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Well, let me ask you --

          4                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  That's an option.

          5                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  -- does the present

          6   statute require silence, a minute of silence in the

          7   schools?  Isn't that the present law?

          8                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  No, sir.

          9                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Let me read to you from

         10   Section 25.082 of the Education Code.  It allows school

         11   districts to observe a moment of silence.

         12                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Allows.

         13                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  That's right.

         14                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  You asked if it were

         15   required.  And it is not required.  It is allowed, but

         16   that's different than being required.

         17                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  You always talk about

         18   local control.  So now we're going to take that local

         19   control from school districts and us mandate a moment of

         20   silence which includes prayer?

         21                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Actually, Senator, it's

         22   a minute of silence, not a moment.  And it's -- And it is

         23   required -- If this bill passes and signed by the

         24   Governor, it would be required of all public school

         25   students in Texas, which is the same as in several other


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          1   states.

          2                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Why -- Why are we

          3   mandating the schools to do that?

          4                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Well, we're not yet.

          5   We haven't passed the bill.  But if we -- if we do, I --

          6   I believe it's in the public interest that all Texas

          7   public school students be treated equally across the

          8   state in this regard by saying the pledge of allegiance

          9   to the United States flag, by saying the pledge of

         10   allegiance to the Texas flag, and by having 60 seconds of

         11   silence at the beginning of the school day as a

         12   beneficial way to begin the school day.

         13                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Senator, you know, I'm

         14   not opposed to the pledge of allegiance or the pledge of

         15   allegiance to the state of Texas, but what you're doing

         16   with this bill is trying to mandate -- take local control

         17   away from local school districts and require them to have

         18   a prayer in schools.

         19                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  No, sir, I'm not.

         20                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  That is the bottom line

         21   and what's -- what's behind this bill.

         22                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  No, sir, I am not.  A

         23   clear reading of the bill indicates that I am not.

         24   Students have four things they may do, and the fourth one

         25   is so broad that there are multiple things they can do


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          1   for the fourth one.  The first one is meditate, the

          2   second one is pray -- I'm sorry, the first one is

          3   reflect, the second is pray, the third is meditate, and

          4   the fourth is anything else that's quiet that doesn't

          5   distract other students.  They can worry about the next

          6   math quiz or they can daydream.

          7                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Don't you think we

          8   already have enough problems in the public schools

          9   without trying to mandate a moment of silence?

         10                 Let me read you another portion of the --

         11   of the statute as it reads today.

         12                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Okay.

         13                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Existing law allows for

         14   a moment of silence in which a student may reflect or

         15   mediate [sic], Section 25.802 of the Educational Code.

         16                 They already have that authority.  Why are

         17   we forcing this on the schools?  We don't trust the

         18   school boards?  We don't trust the teachers to handle the

         19   school rooms?

         20                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Senator, some school

         21   districts do require their students to have that moment

         22   of -- or minute of silence and others do not.  And it's a

         23   matter of personal opinion.  I personally believe that

         24   all Texas public school students should be treated the

         25   same way in this regard, and that's why I've drafted the


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          1   bill the way I have.

          2                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Well, why not allow the

          3   local folks to make their decisions?

          4                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Because I believe all

          5   Texas school students, regardless of which school

          6   district they're in of the thousand and fifty or so,

          7   ought to be treated the same way, and we're the place

          8   that makes those statewide decisions.

          9                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Well, now, if I'm a

         10   Buddhist, can I pray and hum under your bill?

         11                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  If you're making noise,

         12   no, sir, you're not allowed to do that.

         13                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Well, isn't that

         14   discrimination against certain religions?

         15                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  No, sir, it's not,

         16   because they still have that 60 seconds during which they

         17   can reflect or meditate or do anything else that's quiet.

         18   We're not -- That's a good example, Senator, of why this

         19   bill does not mandate prayer.

         20                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Well, again, I disagree,

         21   because some religions -- some religions do -- do require

         22   noise, they do require humming, they do require some type

         23   of articulation of their faith.

         24                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Fine.  They can pray at

         25   home or someplace else, but they won't be doing it in the


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          1   classroom.

          2                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Then why do we need this

          3   bill?

          4                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Well, Senator, we're

          5   not requiring the bill to allow Buddhists to hum in

          6   schools.  It's --

          7                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Senator, what you're

          8   doing is mandating a back-door way of prayer in the

          9   schools.  Any -- Any simple reading of the bill shows

         10   that you enter the word pray as compared to what the

         11   present statute is, which is a minute of silence.

         12                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Number one, it's not

         13   mandated currently.  Number two, it just says meditation

         14   or reflection, and this adds the word prayer and talks

         15   about other things that are silent.

         16                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Do you know how much

         17   more time it would take away from the educational day of

         18   our students by doing this?

         19                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Yes, sir.  Sixty

         20   seconds for the silence portion and however many seconds

         21   it takes to say the pledge of allegiance to the United

         22   States and Texas flags, which is probably something under

         23   30 seconds.  So we're talking about about a minute and a

         24   half a day.

         25                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  So you think that this


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          1   would protect all religions in our country, whether

          2   you're Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, or Jewish?

          3                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Senator, this is not a

          4   school prayer amendment and it's not designed to protect

          5   religions.  It's designed to require things that are not

          6   being done today.  There is no current requirement that

          7   Texas school students say the pledge of allegiance to the

          8   United States flag.

          9                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Well, I'm not opposed to

         10   that.  You know, we can --

         11                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  It's not in the Code.

         12                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  We can take out the

         13   prayer side and I'll be glad to vote for your bill with

         14   just the pledge of allegiance to the United States of

         15   America, our country.  I don't have a problem doing that.

         16                 But what you've done, you've entered the

         17   word pray into your bill, which is very different from

         18   the original intent of just dealing with the pledge of

         19   allegiance or a moment of silence.

         20                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Senator, let me -- let

         21   me ask you a question.  I know this is my bill, but let

         22   me ask you a question.  What do you think -- If we pass

         23   this bill and the Governor signs it, how do you reckon

         24   we'll find out whether or not students are actually

         25   praying after they say the pledge to the two flags?


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          1                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Several ways, Mr.

          2   Wentworth.  You're going to find, Senator, that kids are

          3   kids; they're going to be making fun of each other if

          4   they're from different religions, joking around.

          5                 But, more important, we again are going up

          6   to the United States Supreme Court to deal with an issue

          7   that's already been resolved, waste more money, waste

          8   more time and more resources on an issue that continues

          9   to be brought up again and again after the Supreme Court

         10   has ruled no prayer in the schools.

         11                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Senator, maybe you

         12   weren't aware of the background of this bill.  The

         13   background of this bill came about as the result of my

         14   reading a newspaper account last year of the United

         15   States Supreme Court's upholding the Virginia statute

         16   which allows those -- as a matter of fact, requires

         17   Virginia students to reflect, meditate, or pray in the

         18   Virginia schools.

         19                 And the U.S. Supreme Court had that case

         20   before them and -- and did not strike it down; so I

         21   thought, well, that's a good idea for Texas.  That's

         22   where it came from.

         23                 This statute, in essence, has already been

         24   adopted in Virginia and already been reviewed by the

         25   Supreme Court, and it's still in existence in Virginia,


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          1   and I believe it would be in the best interest of Texas

          2   to also have it.

          3                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Senator, let me -- let

          4   me just tell you this:  You've always argued for local

          5   control.  The present law allows for a minute of silence,

          6   and this bill mandates from us telling each school

          7   district, each classroom teacher what to do every

          8   morning.  And I'm opposed to your bill.

          9                 Thank you.

         10                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Senator, let me just

         11   respectfully say in response, we do a lot of things here

         12   in the legislature that mandates certain things to be

         13   done in those local school districts.  They still elect

         14   school district trustees, those school boards still set

         15   their tax rates, but we set the curriculum statewide.  We

         16   test students statewide uniformly.  There's no in and

         17   out, discretionary, permissive sort of curriculum or

         18   test.

         19                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Our school districts are

         20   supposed to be neutral when it comes to religion.  You

         21   pray at church, you pray at home, not in a public school

         22   system.

         23                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  School districts still

         24   will be neutral on religion even if this bill is passed

         25   and signed by the Governor, Senator.


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          1                 Mr. President, I move to suspend the

          2   regular order of business so that we can pass Senate Bill

          3   83 on third reading.

          4                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Senator

          5   Barrientos, for what purpose do you rise, sir?

          6                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Will the Senator yield

          7   for a --

          8                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Will Senator

          9   Wentworth yield?

         10                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Be happy to yield.

         11                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  The Senator

         12   yields.

         13                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Senator Wentworth,

         14   this bill sounds so right, so correct, so patriotic.

         15   There's something about it that kind of bothers me, and

         16   I'm not sure exactly what it is.  Let me see.

         17                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Does it sound --

         18                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Let me just ask a few

         19   questions.

         20                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Does it sound like a

         21   Republican bill?

         22                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Well, I'm supposed to

         23   be asking questions, Senator.

         24                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I'll try to answer

         25   them.


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          1                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  In the moment of

          2   silence later, I can ask about whether we -- the student

          3   can contemplate being a Republican, a Democrat, his

          4   girlfriend or -- et cetera, but we'll get to that later.

          5                 Tell me again why we need this legislation.

          6                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Senator, I am not sure

          7   that there are a lot of bills, maybe even most of them

          8   that we consider on the floor that we really need, but so

          9   long as 21 of the 31 of us believe it's in the best

         10   interest of the state, we can pass them.  This is one I

         11   believe would be helpful --

         12                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Are you saying we

         13   don't need this bill?

         14                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I didn't say that.

         15                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Oh, well, what --

         16   you're the attorney.  What did you say?

         17                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  What I'm saying is that

         18   I'm not sure that a lot of bills are necessarily needed.

         19   I believe, though, this would improve the state of Texas

         20   if we were to pass it and have it signed into law.

         21                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Okay, but my question

         22   is, Do we need this bill?

         23                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Do we need this bill.

         24   In order to inculcate patriotism and love of country and

         25   loyalty to our students, I believe it would be helpful.


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          1                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  By golly, I'm for all

          2   those things you just said.

          3                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Good.

          4                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Now, how long have you

          5   been in the Senate, Senator?

          6                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  This is my fifth term.

          7   I had three two-year terms.

          8                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Okay.  Did you

          9   introduce it in the first term?

         10                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  No, sir.  This is the

         11   first time I've introduced it because it was only last

         12   year --

         13                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Did you introduce it

         14   in the second term?

         15                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  No, sir.

         16                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Or third or fifth?

         17                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Yes, the fifth.  This

         18   is the fifth.

         19                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  This is the fifth.

         20                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Right.

         21                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  So that's -- what? --

         22   ten, fifteen years?

         23                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  No, sir.  I had three

         24   two-year terms.  This is only my second four-year term.

         25   I've been here since '93.


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          1                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  But you were in the

          2   House before that.  Did you introduce it in the House?

          3                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  In the House for five

          4   years.

          5                 No, sir, because if you heard my colloquy

          6   with Senator Hinojosa, I only read last year in the

          7   newspaper about the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in the

          8   Virginia case.  That's when it came to my attention.

          9                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Had nothing to do with

         10   the fact that we're at war right now?

         11                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  No, sir.

         12                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Okay.

         13                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  No, sir.  As a matter

         14   of fact, I prefiled this bill -- I think I did.  Yeah.

         15   Senate Bill 83, I prefiled this on the very first day we

         16   could file bills in November of last year.  It has

         17   nothing to do with our invading Iraq a couple or three

         18   weeks ago.

         19                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Now, does this bill

         20   have -- in any way prohibit students from -- let's say

         21   other religions from taking advantage of the opportunity

         22   to pray if they choose?

         23                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  If I understand your

         24   question correctly, no, sir, it doesn't prohibit students

         25   from praying.


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          1                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  What if a student is a

          2   Muslim and they are required through their religion to

          3   kneel and do what they do?  Will this bill allow that?

          4                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I'm not sure what "do

          5   what they do" means, but --

          6                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Well, I mean, if you

          7   get on your knees and you bend over like you see some of

          8   them worshipping, that's what I mean.  You know exactly

          9   what I mean, Senator.

         10                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  No, I really don't,

         11   but --

         12                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  You've never seen a

         13   Muslim pray?

         14                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I don't know that I

         15   have, no, sir, not being a Muslim myself and not ever

         16   having attended a mosque.  But -- But my guess is that

         17   there's no prohibition, no specific prohibition in this

         18   bill against kneeling or sitting.  Presumably they would

         19   still be standing because you stand when you say the

         20   pledge to the flag, and I presume that they would still

         21   be standing for the 60 seconds.

         22                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  What if a religion

         23   requires them to kneel or get on the floor?  Will they --

         24                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Senator --

         25                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  -- be allowed to do


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          1   that?

          2                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I'm not -- I'm not sure

          3   that any of this is particularly pertinent, because I

          4   think some teachers may say that if you wind up kneeling,

          5   you may distract other students, and some teachers may

          6   not allow you to do anything other than stand silently

          7   for 60 seconds.

          8                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Precisely, Senator.

          9                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  But this --

         10                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Your legislation says,

         11   does it not, each teacher or other school employee shall

         12   ensure that the students remain silent and do not act in

         13   a manner that is likely to interfere with another

         14   student?

         15                 So what if a couple of the students are --

         16   are Muslim or some other religion where they have to

         17   kneel and all the other students start giggling at them?

         18   The teacher's then going to have to say, All right,

         19   everybody shut up here, we've got these students praying

         20   or meditating or whatever they do in their silence.

         21                 Is that likely to occur?  What's likely to

         22   occur with those children?

         23                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I truly cannot predict

         24   that, Senator.  I don't know.  The teacher has a

         25   responsibility for maintaining order in his or her


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          1   classroom, and my hope would be that students would

          2   remain silent and there wouldn't be any reason for

          3   disciplining or calling out or singling out any

          4   particular student.

          5                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Senator, talk to me

          6   again -- I'm not going to go very much longer.  We have

          7   important business as well as this bill, if it's

          8   important to you.

          9                 So tell me again.  This idea of local

         10   control --

         11                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  That was Senator --

         12                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  -- shouldn't we leave

         13   that up to the local school districts to decide if they

         14   want to do this or not?  Is this -- Is this mandatory, or

         15   is it optional?

         16                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  It is -- It is

         17   currently optional.  Under my bill, it would be

         18   mandatory.

         19                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  It is mandatory.  It

         20   is not optional.

         21                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  That's correct.

         22                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Therefore, as Senator

         23   Hinojosa was saying, it is not local control that we love

         24   to talk about, is it?

         25                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  It is not local control


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          1   in this instance.

          2                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  It is not local

          3   control?

          4                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  No, sir.

          5                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Well, let me ask you

          6   this, Senator:  You've got a bill here that talks about

          7   pledge of allegiance to -- and the caption is relating to

          8   the pledge of allegiance to the United States and Texas

          9   flags.

         10                 By the way, would you like to wager how

         11   many people in this room today know the pledge to the

         12   Texas flag?

         13                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  All -- All the

         14   Republicans know it because we've been to so many

         15   Republican Women's Club meetings -- Republican Women's

         16   Club meetings, where they all know it.  I'm not sure that

         17   I knew it, Senator, before I started going to their

         18   meetings, but, by gosh, I know it now.

         19                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  I hope you're not

         20   saying that Republicans love Texas more than Democrats.

         21                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Absolutely not.  I'm

         22   just giving you --

         23                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  I just wanted to ask

         24   you and put you on the record, Senator.

         25                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I'm confident -- I'm


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          1   confident --

          2                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Would you accept an

          3   amendment --

          4                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I'm confident every

          5   democratic senator here also knows the Texas flag.

          6                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Well, we'll do some

          7   wagering after while to see who knows what.

          8                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  It starts out, Honor

          9   the Texas flag.

         10                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Senator, Senator --

         11                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Texas, one and

         12   indivisible.

         13                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  -- would you -- would

         14   you accept a little old amendment here?  You know, a

         15   while back -- Let me tell you --

         16                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I have --

         17                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  -- a quick little

         18   story.

         19                 I wanted to put my American flag outside of

         20   my office and my Texas flag outside of the -- the door to

         21   my office.  And do you know -- did you know that the

         22   Preservation Board of the -- that's supposed to take care

         23   of this grand building owned by the people of Texas came

         24   by and told me to take them down?  Did you know that?

         25                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I heard that, Senator,


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          1   yes.

          2                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Well, Senator,

          3   wouldn't you like to put a little old amendment on your

          4   bill that would allow me as a senator, or Senator

          5   Whitmire or Senator Gallegos to put an American flag in

          6   front of their office?  Wouldn't that be pertinent to

          7   this bill?

          8                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  It's a -- It's a good

          9   subject for a bill, and my understanding is there is one

         10   already introduced that came to the Administration

         11   Committee a few days ago.  It was discussed.

         12                 I don't believe it would be germane to this

         13   bill because this bill is amending the Education Code,

         14   and I don't -- I don't believe flags in the Capitol

         15   Building would appropriately fit in the Education Code.

         16                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Well, I'm not going to

         17   take any more time here; but, again, like I say, this

         18   bill sounds so right, so patriotic, even religious, but

         19   there's something about it.  But I'm not going to take

         20   any more time.

         21                 Thank you, Mr. President.

         22                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I re- --

         23                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Thank you,

         24   Senator Barrientos.

         25                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I reurge my motion to


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          1   suspend the regular order of business.

          2                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Understand,

          3   understand, Senator.  If you'd -- If you'd bear with me

          4   just a moment.

          5                 The Chair recognize- -- Senator Zaffirini,

          6   for what purpose do you rise?

          7                 SENATOR ZAFFIRINI:  (Inaudible.)

          8                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Okay.

          9                 Senator West, for what purpose do you rise,

         10   sir?

         11                 SENATOR WEST:  Just a question of the

         12   author.

         13                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Will Senator

         14   Wentworth yield?

         15                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Happy to yield, yes,

         16   sir.

         17                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  The Senator

         18   yields.

         19                 SENATOR WEST:  Senator Wentworth, you and I

         20   discussed this bill ad nauseam in -- in committee.

         21                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I took an amendment.

         22                 SENATOR WEST:  And you did.  I just want to

         23   make sure that -- specifically, that if a child decides

         24   to pray, they have the ability to pray; is that correct?

         25                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  That is correct.


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          1                 SENATOR WEST:  Okay.  Now, when we say

          2   pray, if that child customarily prays on his or her

          3   knees, they will be able to do that during that

          4   particular minute; is that correct?

          5                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I'm not sure that that

          6   is correct, Senator.  My -- My answer to Senator

          7   Barrientos was that if -- if that is not considered by

          8   the teacher distracting to other students, then that

          9   student would be allowed to do so.

         10                 If in -- If in fact it caused some

         11   disturbance in the classroom -- My guess is that some

         12   teachers may say that'd be fine and other teachers may,

         13   if it's a distraction, ask them not to do that and to use

         14   that 60 seconds to reflect or meditate.

         15                 SENATOR WEST:  So then -- And, again, I

         16   know we went through this --

         17                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  There's no -- There's

         18   no prohibition --

         19                 SENATOR WEST:  Hold on.  Let me finish.

         20   Let me finish.

         21                 I know we went through this in committee,

         22   but we need to make sure we flush it out on the floor of

         23   the Senate.

         24                 Are we now putting the teachers in a

         25   position to tell a child how they can pray?  Is this


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          1   particular bill doing that?

          2                 If a child normally gets on his or her

          3   knees to pray and the teacher then turns around and says,

          4   well, you can't do that because it's disruptive, are we

          5   putting the teacher in a position that may violate the

          6   constitutional rights of a -- of a child?

          7                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  The students do not

          8   have a constitutional right to pray in --

          9                 SENATOR WEST:  Well, a statutory right,

         10   then.

         11                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  -- the school under

         12   this bill.

         13                 SENATOR WEST:  They have a statutory right

         14   under this bill, though.

         15                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Well, they have a

         16   statutory right that's limited.  So long as it is not

         17   likely to interfere with or distract another student,

         18   each teacher or other school employee in charge of

         19   students during that period shall ensure that each of

         20   those students remain silent and does not act in a manner

         21   that is likely to interfere with or distract another

         22   student.

         23                 SENATOR WEST:  So then the teacher is --

         24                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  And it's impossible for

         25   me to anticipate in every one of the thousand and fifty


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          1   school districts and all the individual schools what each

          2   teacher may or may not do if --

          3                 SENATOR WEST:  So then it's up to the

          4   teacher to decide whether or not -- if a child decides to

          5   pray on his or her knees, whether or not that is

          6   distracting or interfering -- or interfere with other

          7   students?

          8                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  My guess is if it's

          9   done silently that it probably is not a distraction and

         10   would not interfere with any other student's ability to

         11   stand and reflect or meditate or pray.

         12                 SENATOR WEST:  So you said your guess is,

         13   or is it your legislative intent that if a child

         14   customarily prays on his or her knees, then they should

         15   be able to do that in the classroom for this one minute

         16   that we're providing for in this particular statute, if

         17   it becomes law?

         18                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I would hope that would

         19   be the decision by that teacher, but I'm not going to

         20   make a blanket assertion and substitute my judgment for

         21   that teacher's responsibility for maintaining order in

         22   his or her classroom.  I mean, the language is very clear

         23   here in the law, and I would hope that they would follow

         24   it.

         25                 If students are able to kneel while praying


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          1   silently and not distract the other students, then that

          2   should be permitted.

          3                 SENATOR WEST:  That should be permitted?

          4                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Absolutely.

          5                 SENATOR WEST:  Thank you.

          6                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Yes, sir.

          7                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Senator

          8   Gallegos, for what purpose do you rise?

          9                 SENATOR GALLEGOS:  Will the Senator yield?

         10                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Will Senator

         11   Wentworth yield?

         12                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Yes, sir.

         13                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Will the

         14   Senator yield?

         15                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Happy to yield.

         16                 SENATOR GALLEGOS:  Senator, and -- and I

         17   want to go back to some of the line of questioning that

         18   Senator Hinojosa was asking, and -- and I'm looking under

         19   the -- it says that the board of trustees shall, and then

         20   we get down to -- to -- on the praying and the shall

         21   reflect, pray, or engage.

         22                 Now, I guess what my concern here is, when

         23   you were -- when you were debating with Senator

         24   Barrientos, and a child decides to do this, under your

         25   bill and is -- and is allowed to by the teacher or the


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          1   volunteer, you said you presume that the teacher or the

          2   volunteer shall allow that student to a moment of

          3   silence, of prayer.  And when you said presume, that --

          4   that stretches it a little bit, and it concerns me --

          5   First of all, let me give you an example, what happened a

          6   long time ago.  When my mother was in school, if she

          7   spoke any type of Spanish, she got spanked; and -- and

          8   now she sits on the board of trustees of HIS.

          9                 I guess my concern is if -- if I go to a

         10   corner, and let's say I'm in -- I'm in class, third,

         11   fourth grade, and I'm in class and I go to a corner, once

         12   I'm allowed under your presumption, under your bill that

         13   that teacher, that volunteer is going to allow me, as a

         14   third grade or fourth grader, to go to a corner and pray

         15   in silence, what if I have a rosary or what if I have a

         16   picture of Our Lady Guadalupe or what if I have -- the

         17   Jewish faith puts the -- what is it? -- yarmulke on, and

         18   I decide to put that on?

         19                 Now, let's go back to what you were talking

         20   about, presume.  Now, I'm not there in that classroom.

         21   That teacher is, or that volunteer or that substitute or

         22   that aide or whoever.

         23                 Are you guaranteeing me under this bill

         24   that either that teacher, that substitute, that aide,

         25   that volunteer is going to allow me to go to a corner,


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          1   break out my -- Our Lady of Guadalupe or my rosary and

          2   then pray in silence, you know?  Is that what you're

          3   guaranteeing me under this bill, under the word shall?

          4   Is that -- any one of those four is going to allow me to

          5   do that?

          6                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  No, sir, I'm not going

          7   to guarantee that.

          8                 SENATOR GALLEGOS:  Well, then, I have a

          9   problem with that, because if I'm the only one that

         10   decides to go, under your bill --

         11                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Well, I'd vote no,

         12   then, Senator Gallegos.

         13                 SENATOR GALLEGOS:  Well, that's probably

         14   what I'm going to do, but I'm just telling you what can

         15   of worms you're opening up here, because there's no way

         16   you can guarantee that -- any of the school districts in

         17   this state, that one of those teachers, volunteers,

         18   substitutes, whatever you want to call them, is not going

         19   to allow or -- won't allow or is not going to allow that

         20   child to pray or their moment of silence or whatever they

         21   want to do at the time they're given.

         22                 And that's my concern, because you could

         23   have one of those in one of these school districts in the

         24   state of Texas -- and I represent the largest one, HISD,

         25   that that's going to happen under your own words with


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          1   Senator Barrientos, under the word presumption.

          2                 You know, how can I -- I presume that if

          3   something comes out in Spanish that that teacher,

          4   volunteer, substitute is not going to say something bad

          5   to that student if he or she is silently or blurbs out

          6   something in Spanish, a religious -- a religious word in

          7   Spanish or Jewish or whatever, the other faiths.  And

          8   that's my concern under your bill, on presumption.

          9                 And -- And I'm like, you know, the pledge

         10   of allegiance to the Texas flag or the American flag, no

         11   problems.  I just -- That presumption and what happened

         12   to my mother a long time ago, I fear that that might

         13   happen under your bill.  I just wanted to point that out.

         14                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Well, Senator, this

         15   bill has absolutely nothing to do with anything that

         16   anybody says in any particular language.  It is not an

         17   anti-Spanish language bill.  That's -- That's as

         18   farfetched as anything I can imagine.

         19                 It very clearly says that this is 60

         20   seconds of silence.  It says the school district shall

         21   provide for that period of time, but it's up to the

         22   student to decide for themselves, individually, whether

         23   they meditate, reflect, pray, or engage in some other

         24   silent activity that is not distracting to other

         25   students.


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          1                 In regard to guaranteeing that every

          2   teacher would allow every student that wants to go to a

          3   corner, after they've said the pledge, to pray, I mean,

          4   I -- if you extend that out, let's say you have a class

          5   of 20 students and all of them want to go to the corner

          6   to pray, I mean, that's going to be a problem.

          7                 Typically, at least the experience in

          8   Virginia is all the students remain at their desk, in

          9   place, for that 60 seconds after they've -- actually, I'm

         10   not sure that they say the pledges in Virginia.  But for

         11   their 60 seconds of silence, they don't move around the

         12   room.  They stay at their desks.

         13                 So that's why I'm unable to guarantee you

         14   that that would be treated uniformly among the

         15   thousand-plus school districts.

         16                 Mr. Chairman, I -- I re-reurge my motion.

         17                 SENATOR ESTES:  Mr. President?  Mr.

         18   President?

         19                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Senator

         20   Estes, for what purpose do you rise, sir?

         21                 SENATOR ESTES:  Will the Senator yield?

         22                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Will Senator

         23   Wentworth yield?

         24                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Happy to yield, yes,

         25   sir.


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          1                 SENATOR ESTES:  Thank you, Senator

          2   Wentworth.

          3                 As I remember, when I was a freshman, I

          4   came here and it said there's a time to speak and a time

          5   to be silent; and I appreciate you yielding, but I assume

          6   it's time for me to speak.

          7                 I don't want people to get the feeling that

          8   there's only Democrats that have a problem with this

          9   bill.  Some people, astute political observers may say,

         10   well, all those people that have spoken are way too

         11   liberal for this bill.  I want to go on the record as

         12   saying I'm way too conservative for this bill.  I've got

         13   some real problems with it, because it's about freedom,

         14   Senator.  It's letting school boards and teachers have

         15   the freedom.

         16                 Everything in this bill is a good thing.

         17   The pledge to the flag is a good thing, the pledge to the

         18   Texas flag is a good thing, a moment of silence is a good

         19   thing.

         20                 But I worry.  Senator Whitmire talks about

         21   that chain gang.  It's getting rather long here.  And

         22   little Johnny that's on Ritalin, that can only stay

         23   silent for 45 seconds, may have to be on that chain gang.

         24                 So I just urge my conservative colleagues

         25   in the Senate to realize that this -- this creates more


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          1   problems than it solves and that we need to look at this

          2   and think of it very carefully and realize it's about

          3   freedom and it's about our teachers having the freedom to

          4   do what they need to do in classrooms and not about state

          5   mandates.

          6                 Thank you, Mr. President.

          7                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Thank you,

          8   Senator Estes.

          9                 Senator Lucio, for what purpose do you

         10   rise?

         11                 SENATOR LUCIO:  (inaudible)

         12                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Will Senator

         13   Wentworth yield?

         14                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I'm delighted to yield

         15   to the whole Senate if they'd like to visit about this

         16   bill.  Twenty-eight of them have signed up in favor, so

         17   I --

         18                 SENATOR LUCIO:  Senator Wentworth,

         19   obviously this is an emotional bill.  It's a bill that --

         20   that members have a difference of opinion on and a bill

         21   that really shows us all that freedom of speech is still

         22   working in our country.

         23                 I -- I for one, you know, agree, Senator

         24   Estes, this is not a partisan issue.  It should never be

         25   a partisan issue of any kind.


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          1                 I -- You've heard me how many times say

          2   that I was -- I was taught and preached Americanism.

          3   I -- I wish I could amend your -- your bill to ensure

          4   that there was a time during the course of a day that we

          5   could teach our kids Americanism, patriotism.  This would

          6   be, obviously, a way to do that.

          7                 You know, earlier today -- and by the way,

          8   I want my grandchildren -- to make sure that they go to

          9   the public schools that -- that -- where they can stand

         10   up and pledge allegiance to -- to the flag and that they

         11   can have a moment of silence to be able to pray and thank

         12   the American men and women that have come before them who

         13   have made it possible for them to live in the greatest

         14   country in the world.

         15                 We had POWs here and we all acknowledged

         16   their patriotism, their heroics.  They took a pledge when

         17   they put that American uniform on to uphold the

         18   principles and democracy that we stand for in our

         19   country.

         20                 And I don't think you're asking for too

         21   much here, Senator.  I think it's a great step forward in

         22   ensuring that we continue to be -- to come together as

         23   one people in this country and not fragmented, you know,

         24   people, not divided up in different religious beliefs and

         25   different culture beliefs and different -- many other


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          1   things that I won't go into, to come together as an

          2   American citizen.  And I think this pledge will do that

          3   because the words of the pledge are significant.

          4                 And to have a moment of silence really

          5   gives an opportunity for our children -- regardless if

          6   they're Catholic or Baptist or Methodist or Protestant or

          7   Jewish, to have an a opportunity to pray just momentarily

          8   to their God and to be thankful that they live in the

          9   greatest country in the world.

         10                 This is a good bill, Members.  There's

         11   nothing wrong with this bill.

         12                 I support you.

         13                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Thank you, Senator

         14   Lucio.

         15                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Thank you,

         16   Senator Lucio.

         17                 Senator Wentworth moves to suspend the

         18   Senate's regular order of business to take up and

         19   consider Committee Substitute to Senate Bill 83.

         20                 All those in favor say aye.

         21                 MEMBERS:  Aye.

         22                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  All those

         23   opposed say nay.

         24

         25                 MEMBERS:  Nay.


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          1                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Vote aye,

          2   vote nay.  The Secretary will call the role.

          3                 THE SECRETARY:  Armbrister, Averitt,

          4   Barrientos, Bivens, Brimer, Carona, Deuell, Duncan,

          5   Ellis, Estes, Fraser, Gallegos, Harris, Hinojosa,

          6   Jackson, Janek, Lindsay, Lucio, Madla, Nelson, Ogden --

          7   Ogden, Bivens, Ratliff, Shapiro, Shapleigh, Staples, Van

          8   de Putte, Wentworth, West, Whitmire, Williams, Zaffirini.

          9                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  There were

         10   some loud nays.  With 27 ayes and three nays, the

         11   Constitutional rule is suspended.  I'm sorry.  The rules

         12   are suspended.

         13                 The Chair lays out on third reading and

         14   final passage Committee Substitute to Senate Bill 83.

         15   The Secretary will read the caption.

         16                 THE SECRETARY:  Committee Substitute for

         17   Senate Bill 83 relating to pledges of allegiance to the

         18   United States and Texas flags and to observance of one

         19   minute of silence in public schools.

         20                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  The following

         21   floor amendment by Senator Whitmire.  The Secretary will

         22   read the amendment.

         23                 THE SECRETARY:  Floor Amendment Number 1,

         24   by Whitmire.

         25                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  The Chair


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          1   recognizes the Dean of the Senate to explain the

          2   amendment.

          3                 THE DEAN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

          4                 Members, if I could have your attention.  I

          5   think we've had a very healthy debate.  I cautiously

          6   voted with Senator Wentworth.  But if you'll look at the

          7   amendment that I have laid on your desk, it requires that

          8   the Legislature two years from now will revisit this

          9   subject.

         10                 I think it's one of the most important --

         11   probably one of the more important discussions we have

         12   had in terms of -- we're fixing to go into every

         13   classroom in this state and require school

         14   administrators, teachers, families to deal with a moment

         15   of silence each day in public schools.

         16                 I'm as hopeful as Senator Wentworth that

         17   it's going to be beneficial, but because I have watched

         18   the debate and even heard from constituents about how is

         19   this really, really going to work across the state of

         20   Texas, in small communities and large communities -- Some

         21   communities all think alike.  Some are very diverse.

         22                 I think it would be very proper for this

         23   body to require the Legislature to revisit this before

         24   the end of the next legislative session or this act will

         25   expire.


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          1                 It could be that we will have very positive

          2   results, that students have learned respect for areas

          3   that they did not respect before.  On the other hand, we

          4   could be bogged down in court challenges, Senator

          5   Wentworth, we could be hearing from families that it's

          6   disruptive, from school administrators that it just

          7   didn't accomplish what we intended.

          8                 But I will join you in voting for this, but

          9   I would ask the members to require this body to revisit

         10   this; and if it's as good as some of us hope it will be,

         11   we will reinstitute it, pass it again, probably under

         12   similar discussions.

         13                 On the other hand, Senator Wentworth, if a

         14   majority of Texans or through town hall meetings or

         15   through discussions have told us you meant well, it just

         16   is not as good as you thought, I would hope that you

         17   would accept this amendment.  If not, I'll leave it to

         18   the will of the body, but I offer it in absolute good

         19   faith that I will work with you to see how well it works,

         20   support your legislation, and be back in two years to

         21   join you again in passing it, because it's probably one

         22   of the most sensitive things, Senator Wentworth, that we

         23   will discuss.  What do you do with your personal freedom?

         24   How do you deal with a moment of silence when everyone

         25   around you in the class is thinking about their faith,


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          1   their flag.  And I just think something this important we

          2   ought not to pass without knowing we want to revisit the

          3   subject in two years.

          4                 At this time, I'll offer up the amendment,

          5   Mr. President, and move adoption.

          6                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  The Chair

          7   recognizes Senator Wentworth on the amendment.

          8                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Mr. President, I oppose

          9   the amendment.  Those words it expires June 1, 2005 could

         10   be appropriately added to every single bill we pass here

         11   on the basis that, well, let's see how it works for the

         12   next couple of years, and if it works, fine, we'll come

         13   back and we'll repass it.  I think it'd be an enormous

         14   waste of our time to do that.

         15                 Really, all we're saying in this bill --

         16   the only thing that this is going to change in the state

         17   is it's going to require those school districts that do

         18   not currently allow for this 60 seconds of silence and

         19   it's going to institute something that most all of us had

         20   as we were growing up anyway, and that's the pledge to

         21   the flags, of both the United States and Texas flags.

         22   It's going to have a beneficial effect.

         23                 And this needs to be the law and it needs

         24   to be the law effective beginning with academic school

         25   year 2003/2004, without any expiration.


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          1                 If it turns out that there's some

          2   horrendous result, which is not going to happen, Senator

          3   Whitmire, we can very easily come back in two years and

          4   repeal it, as we sometimes do with things that don't work

          5   out.  But we don't need to be putting a two-year

          6   expiration date in this bill, and I would respectfully

          7   suggest that we do not need this amendment.

          8                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  The Chair

          9   recognizes the Dean to close.

         10                 THE DEAN:  Mr. President, Members, Senator

         11   Wentworth, my language does not jeopardize your bill one

         12   iota.  It allows your bill to go forward.  We get to see

         13   how well it's implemented.  We have expired legislation

         14   before.

         15                 And I would -- I would beg to differ.  I

         16   don't think we're wasting time when we have a good,

         17   healthy debate about what an individual's going to do

         18   with their personal freedoms.  I think it's a healthy

         19   amendment, and if it's as good as you are claiming, you

         20   could reinstitute it in two years.  And I fully expect

         21   that you probably will be able to do that.

         22                 At this time, I move adoption of the

         23   amendment, Mr. President.

         24                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Members, the

         25   question is on adoption of the amendment.  All those in


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          1   favor say I aye.

          2                 MEMBERS:  Aye.

          3                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  All those

          4   opposed say nay.

          5                 MEMBERS:  Nay.

          6                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Vote aye,

          7   vote nay.  The Secretary will call the role.

          8                 THE SECRETARY:  Armbrister, Averitt,

          9   Barrientos, Bivens, Brimer, Carona, Deuell, Duncan,

         10   Ellis, Estes, Fraser, Gallegos, Harris, Hinojosa,

         11   Jackson, Janek, Lindsay, Lucio, Madla, Nelson, Ogden,

         12   Bivens, Ratliff, Shapiro, Shapleigh, Staples, Van de

         13   Putte, Wentworth, West, Whitmire, Williams, Zaffirini.

         14                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  There

         15   being -- There being 14 ayes and 16 nays, the amendment

         16   fails.

         17                 The following floor amendment by Senator

         18   Hinojosa.  The Secretary will read the amendment.

         19                 THE SECRETARY:  Floor Amendment Number 2,

         20   by Hinojosa.

         21                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Mr. President --

         22                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  The Chair

         23   recognizes Senator Hinojosa to explain the amendment.

         24                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Thank you, Mr.

         25   President.


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          1                 You know, Mr. President, Members, we talk

          2   about a great country that we have, those of us who have

          3   fought to defend our way of life, freedom of speech,

          4   freedom of religion.  If you look at all the turmoil that

          5   goes on in the rest of the world, a lot of -- a lot of it

          6   is about religion.  We've got a lot of wars going on

          7   because of religion.

          8                 And my amendment deletes the word pray from

          9   your bill, Senator, leaves the one minute of silence, the

         10   pledge of allegiance, the pledge to Texas.

         11                 I'm Catholic.  My son is Jewish.  When he

         12   prays, he wears a yarmulke.  And let me tell you, kids

         13   will pick fights with him because he's Jewish.

         14                 And what you're doing is trying to bring --

         15   a back-door way of bringing prayer to our schools.  I

         16   don't think that's right.  Prayer belongs at home, in our

         17   churches, in the synagogues, not in a public school

         18   system.

         19                 Also what you're allowing to do is letting

         20   the teacher -- letting the teacher be the judge in the

         21   classroom of who is conforming -- conforming to this

         22   statute in terms of prayer or not praying.  The teacher

         23   could be Jewish, could be Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist,

         24   who knows, but it's a responsibility that we don't need

         25   to place on our teachers, who already have enough to do


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          1   in trying to teach our kids how to be good citizens.

          2                 Mr. President, Members, I move adoption.

          3                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  The Chair

          4   recognizes Senator Wentworth to speak on the amendment.

          5                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Mr. President, I oppose

          6   the amendment.

          7                 The bill doesn't require your son or any

          8   other student in Texas public schools to pray.  There's

          9   no requirement of praying.

         10                 But I want to give in statute a

         11   recognition -- my guess is that in those schools that are

         12   allowed and those school boards that do take advantage of

         13   it allowed to have the 60 seconds of meditation or

         14   reflection, we don't know what those students are doing

         15   in that 60 seconds of silence, and my guess is that some

         16   of them are already praying.

         17                 But it's not in the statute.  I just want

         18   to include it in the statute.  They can still meditate or

         19   reflect or do something else, but I'd like it in there.

         20                 And I'd like to point out, we begin each

         21   session -- you know, I respectfully disagree, Senator.

         22   You and I both served active duty in the military to

         23   defend the very things we're talking about on the floor

         24   right this minute.

         25                 But -- But I disagree, respectfully, with


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          1   you about prayer should only be at home and in the

          2   church.  Prayer can be wherever we are.  We can pray

          3   driving our cars, we can pray in school.  In fact, we

          4   open every session of this body in this chamber not with

          5   silent prayer but in audible prayer.

          6                 In any case, Mr. President, I respectfully

          7   urge a no-vote on Senator Hinojosa's amendment.

          8                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  The Chair

          9   recognizes Senator Hinojosa to close.

         10                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Senator, while I agree

         11   that we can pray in many places, our school districts --

         12   our public school system are supposed to be secular and

         13   neutral.  And I think it's not realistic to think that

         14   prayer would not be part of the agenda in many of the

         15   school districts, forcing many students to be contrary to

         16   their religion.

         17                 If you were to accept my amendment, then I

         18   would really believe you when you talk about being a

         19   patriot or that we're trying to teach our students how to

         20   be good citizens.

         21                 The pledge of allegiance, the pledge to the

         22   state of Texas, I don't have any problems whatsoever with

         23   those, but by you allowing to leave the word prayer shows

         24   that your intent is trying to bring prayer back in the

         25   school system.  This is why I oppose your bill.


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          1                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Senator

          2   Gallegos, for what purpose do you rise, sir?

          3                 SENATOR GALLEGOS:  To ask a question of the

          4   author.

          5                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Will Senator

          6   Hinojosa yield?  The Senator yields.

          7                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  I yield.

          8                 SENATOR GALLEGOS:  Senator Hinojosa, let

          9   me -- I think that those of us -- And I agree with your

         10   comments to Senator Wentworth.  Those of us that have

         11   seen discrimination, whether it be prayer, faith,

         12   language -- and I've seen it, and I've seen it.  My

         13   mother's seen it before me.  And I saw it in my first

         14   year in the Houston Fire Department when my grandmother

         15   called me and I had to -- she only spoke Spanish, and I

         16   was told that I had to hang up because you could not

         17   speak Spanish in the fire station.

         18                 But now comes -- now comes this bill on

         19   prayer.  Now, and I asked Senator Wentworth is there a

         20   guarantee -- We're talking about public schools here.

         21   We're talking about public schools.  We're not talking

         22   about private schools.  I don't think it has private --

         23                 Does it have private schools?  To your

         24   knowledge, does it have private schools in here?

         25                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  No, it doesn't.


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          1                 SENATOR GALLEGOS:  Does not have private

          2   schools, okay.  We're talking only public schools that

          3   are regulated by the State of Texas; is that correct,

          4   Senator?

          5                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  That's correct, Senator.

          6                 SENATOR GALLEGOS:  Well, then I guess my

          7   concern and my only (inaudible) because of what I've seen

          8   in the past and what other -- other people, especially in

          9   the Valley and those of us that grew up where we did,

         10   inside -- inside the big cities, that Senator Wentworth

         11   does not guarantee that that child is going to be able to

         12   be praying as a Catholic or as -- of the Jewish faith or

         13   Muslim, that he or she is not going to be ridiculed in

         14   any way or they're going to be allowed to go to that

         15   corner or at their desk and perform their moment of

         16   silence for one minute, 60 seconds, whatever, without

         17   being ridiculed, without being told, no, you cannot do

         18   it.  We're not going to do it.  We're going to let these

         19   people do it, but you can't do it.  You know, there's no

         20   guarantee under his bill that allows that child.

         21                 And that's my concern, Senator, because of

         22   what I've seen in the past and what I see that might

         23   happen in this bill.  He might not see it.  Maybe he

         24   hasn't seen it in the past like you and I have.  I've

         25   seen it.  It could happen.


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          1                 That's why he should allow -- he should

          2   have allowed Senator Whitmire's sunset bill, but he

          3   didn't.  But that's what I see in the bill, and I support

          4   your amendment for that very cause.

          5                 Those of us that have seen discrimination,

          6   whether -- whatever, including prayer, including

          7   religion, those of us that have seen it -- I think that

          8   your amendment is appropriate for this bill.

          9                 SENATOR HINOJOSA:  Thank you, Senator.

         10                 And I will end by saying that most of

         11   the -- if you look at history, a lot of the wars we've

         12   fought since the start of humanity were religion.  So,

         13   please, let's honor our principles of the freedom of

         14   religion in our country.

         15                 And, Mr. -- Mr. President, I would vote

         16   adoption of my amendment.

         17                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Thank you,

         18   Senator.

         19                 Members, the question is on the adoption of

         20   the amendment.  All those in favor say aye.

         21                 MEMBERS:  Aye.

         22                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  All those

         23   opposed say nay.

         24                 MEMBERS:  Nay.

         25                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  The nays have


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          1   it.  The amendment fails.

          2                 The Chair recognizes Senator Wentworth for

          3   a motion.

          4                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Mr. President, I move

          5   final passage of Committee Substitute for Senate Bill 83

          6   on third reading.

          7                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  Senator

          8   Wentworth moves final passage of Committee Substitute for

          9   Senate Bill 83.  This is a record vote.  The Secretary

         10   will call the role.

         11                 THE SECRETARY:  Armbrister, Averitt,

         12   Barrientos, Bivens, Brimer, Carona, Deuell, Duncan,

         13   Ellis, Estes, Fraser, Gallegos, Harris, Hinojosa,

         14   Jackson, Janek, Lindsay, Lucio, Madla, Nelson, Ogden,

         15   Ratliff, Shapiro, Shapleigh, Staples, Van de Putte,

         16   Wentworth, West, Whitmire, Williams, Zaffirini.

         17                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  There being

         18   27 ayes and 4 nays, Committee Substitute to Senate Bill

         19   83 is finally passed.

         20                 Congratulations, Senator.

         21                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  Mr. President, Mr.

         22   President, may I be recognized to make a brief

         23   observation?

         24                 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST:  The Chair

         25   recognizes Senator Wentworth.


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          1                 SENATOR WENTWORTH:  I just want to make the

          2   observation that the Senate's gone through, I think, a

          3   very healthy debate and it was made possible by the

          4   Senate following the Constitution and having second

          5   reading yesterday and third reading today.

          6                 SENATOR BARRIENTOS:  Senator Barrientos

          7   moves for a moment of silence.

          8                 The President's desk is clear.

          9                 (End of transcription.)

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          1   STATE OF TEXAS    )

          2   COUNTY OF TARRANT )

          3             I, LEAH K. OSTEEN, Certified Shorthand

          4   Reporter, duly qualified in and for the State of Texas,

          5   certify that the foregoing Transcript of Proceedings

          6   Concerning Committee Substitute of Senate Bill 83 was

          7   transcribed by me from a Texas Senate Media Services file

          8   indicating the date of the proceedings to have taken

          9   place on 04/09/03, and that the Transcript of Proceedings

         10   Concerning Committee Substitute of Senate Bill 83 is a

         11   true record of the Texas Media Services file from which

         12   it was transcribed.

         13

         14             GIVEN UNDER MY HAND OF OFFICE on this the

         15   7th day of August, 2006.

         16                             ____________________________
                                        LEAH K. OSTEEN, CSR No. 3916
         17                             Certified Shorthand Reporter
                                        in and for the State of Texas
         18                             Certification expires 12/31/06

         19   Osteen Reporting Services
              Firm Registration No. 392
         20   313 Northglen Drive
              Hurst, Texas  76054-3024
         21   (817) 498-9990 (telephone)
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         22

         23

         24

         25


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