1
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1
2
3
4
5
6 ******************************************
7
8 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS CONCERNING
9 COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE OF SENATE BILL 83
10
11 ******************************************
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19 THE FOLLOWING TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS CONCERNING
20 COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE OF SENATE BILL 83 was transcribed by
21 Leah K. Osteen, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for
22 the State of Texas, from a Texas Senate Media Services
23 file indicating the date of the proceedings to have taken
24 place on 04/09/03.
25
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
2
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: The Chair
2 recognizes Senator Wentworth for a motion on Committee
3 Substitute to Senate Bill 83.
4 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Thank you, Mr.
5 President.
6 I move to suspend the regular order of
7 business to take up and consider the Committee Substitute
8 for Senate Bill 83. This bill would require Texas public
9 school students to recite the pledge of allegiance to the
10 United States flag, the Texas flag, and to observe one
11 minute of silence.
12 We passed this bill yesterday on second
13 reading. This is third reading, Mr. President. I move
14 to suspend the regular order of business.
15 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Senator
16 Hinojosa, for what purpose do you rise, sir?
17 SENATOR HINOJOSA: To ask a question of the
18 author.
19 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Will Senator
20 Wentworth yield?
21 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Yes.
22 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: The Senator
23 yields.
24 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Be happy to yield.
25 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Senator, what else does
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
3
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 the bill do besides requiring a minute of silence and
2 asking for a pledge of allegiance? It also asks for
3 prayer; does it not?
4 SENATOR WENTWORTH: No, sir, it doesn't
5 require prayer at all. It gives students the option
6 between meditation, reflection, prayer, or anything else
7 that's -- that doesn't distract other students.
8 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Well, if you look at
9 page 1, line 1 -- 37, it says pray; does it not?
10 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Tell me again. Where
11 are you talking about?
12 SENATOR HINOJOSA: If you look at page 1 --
13 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Yes, sir.
14 SENATOR HINOJOSA: -- line 37, it says
15 reflect, comma, pray.
16 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Yes, sir. I said,
17 well, reflect, pray, meditate, or engage in any other
18 silent activity that's not likely to distract. That's --
19 That's the answer I just gave you without reading it from
20 the bill.
21 SENATOR HINOJOSA: And it --
22 SENATOR WENTWORTH: It's four things.
23 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Okay.
24 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Four things. Reflect,
25 meditate, pray, or engage in any other silent activity
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
4
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 that doesn't distract other students. So there are four
2 things you may do. And, frankly, we won't know what
3 students are doing because it is silent.
4 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Well, what you're doing
5 is you're mandating prayer in the schools; are you not?
6 SENATOR WENTWORTH: We are not mandating
7 prayer in the schools, Senator Hinojosa.
8 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Has --
9 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Obviously we're not.
10 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Has the United States
11 Supreme Court ruled that it's unconstitutional to mandate
12 prayer in schools?
13 SENATOR WENTWORTH: The United States
14 Supreme Court ruled in 1962 that audible denominational
15 prayer in public schools is outlawed, and they have not
16 changed their opinion, nor will this bill.
17 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Well --
18 SENATOR WENTWORTH: This bill does not
19 mandate prayer in public schools.
20 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Of course it does --
21 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Of course it doesn't.
22 SENATOR HINOJOSA: -- Senator Wentworth.
23 SENATOR WENTWORTH: A clear reading of the
24 bill, Senator. And you just pointed out exactly the
25 line. Reflect, pray, meditate, or engage in any other
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
5
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 silent activity that is not likely to interfere with or
2 distract another student.
3 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Well, let me ask you --
4 SENATOR WENTWORTH: That's an option.
5 SENATOR HINOJOSA: -- does the present
6 statute require silence, a minute of silence in the
7 schools? Isn't that the present law?
8 SENATOR WENTWORTH: No, sir.
9 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Let me read to you from
10 Section 25.082 of the Education Code. It allows school
11 districts to observe a moment of silence.
12 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Allows.
13 SENATOR HINOJOSA: That's right.
14 SENATOR WENTWORTH: You asked if it were
15 required. And it is not required. It is allowed, but
16 that's different than being required.
17 SENATOR HINOJOSA: You always talk about
18 local control. So now we're going to take that local
19 control from school districts and us mandate a moment of
20 silence which includes prayer?
21 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Actually, Senator, it's
22 a minute of silence, not a moment. And it's -- And it is
23 required -- If this bill passes and signed by the
24 Governor, it would be required of all public school
25 students in Texas, which is the same as in several other
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
6
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 states.
2 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Why -- Why are we
3 mandating the schools to do that?
4 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Well, we're not yet.
5 We haven't passed the bill. But if we -- if we do, I --
6 I believe it's in the public interest that all Texas
7 public school students be treated equally across the
8 state in this regard by saying the pledge of allegiance
9 to the United States flag, by saying the pledge of
10 allegiance to the Texas flag, and by having 60 seconds of
11 silence at the beginning of the school day as a
12 beneficial way to begin the school day.
13 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Senator, you know, I'm
14 not opposed to the pledge of allegiance or the pledge of
15 allegiance to the state of Texas, but what you're doing
16 with this bill is trying to mandate -- take local control
17 away from local school districts and require them to have
18 a prayer in schools.
19 SENATOR WENTWORTH: No, sir, I'm not.
20 SENATOR HINOJOSA: That is the bottom line
21 and what's -- what's behind this bill.
22 SENATOR WENTWORTH: No, sir, I am not. A
23 clear reading of the bill indicates that I am not.
24 Students have four things they may do, and the fourth one
25 is so broad that there are multiple things they can do
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
7
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 for the fourth one. The first one is meditate, the
2 second one is pray -- I'm sorry, the first one is
3 reflect, the second is pray, the third is meditate, and
4 the fourth is anything else that's quiet that doesn't
5 distract other students. They can worry about the next
6 math quiz or they can daydream.
7 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Don't you think we
8 already have enough problems in the public schools
9 without trying to mandate a moment of silence?
10 Let me read you another portion of the --
11 of the statute as it reads today.
12 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Okay.
13 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Existing law allows for
14 a moment of silence in which a student may reflect or
15 mediate [sic], Section 25.802 of the Educational Code.
16 They already have that authority. Why are
17 we forcing this on the schools? We don't trust the
18 school boards? We don't trust the teachers to handle the
19 school rooms?
20 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Senator, some school
21 districts do require their students to have that moment
22 of -- or minute of silence and others do not. And it's a
23 matter of personal opinion. I personally believe that
24 all Texas public school students should be treated the
25 same way in this regard, and that's why I've drafted the
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
8
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 bill the way I have.
2 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Well, why not allow the
3 local folks to make their decisions?
4 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Because I believe all
5 Texas school students, regardless of which school
6 district they're in of the thousand and fifty or so,
7 ought to be treated the same way, and we're the place
8 that makes those statewide decisions.
9 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Well, now, if I'm a
10 Buddhist, can I pray and hum under your bill?
11 SENATOR WENTWORTH: If you're making noise,
12 no, sir, you're not allowed to do that.
13 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Well, isn't that
14 discrimination against certain religions?
15 SENATOR WENTWORTH: No, sir, it's not,
16 because they still have that 60 seconds during which they
17 can reflect or meditate or do anything else that's quiet.
18 We're not -- That's a good example, Senator, of why this
19 bill does not mandate prayer.
20 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Well, again, I disagree,
21 because some religions -- some religions do -- do require
22 noise, they do require humming, they do require some type
23 of articulation of their faith.
24 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Fine. They can pray at
25 home or someplace else, but they won't be doing it in the
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
9
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 classroom.
2 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Then why do we need this
3 bill?
4 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Well, Senator, we're
5 not requiring the bill to allow Buddhists to hum in
6 schools. It's --
7 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Senator, what you're
8 doing is mandating a back-door way of prayer in the
9 schools. Any -- Any simple reading of the bill shows
10 that you enter the word pray as compared to what the
11 present statute is, which is a minute of silence.
12 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Number one, it's not
13 mandated currently. Number two, it just says meditation
14 or reflection, and this adds the word prayer and talks
15 about other things that are silent.
16 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Do you know how much
17 more time it would take away from the educational day of
18 our students by doing this?
19 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Yes, sir. Sixty
20 seconds for the silence portion and however many seconds
21 it takes to say the pledge of allegiance to the United
22 States and Texas flags, which is probably something under
23 30 seconds. So we're talking about about a minute and a
24 half a day.
25 SENATOR HINOJOSA: So you think that this
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
10
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 would protect all religions in our country, whether
2 you're Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, or Jewish?
3 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Senator, this is not a
4 school prayer amendment and it's not designed to protect
5 religions. It's designed to require things that are not
6 being done today. There is no current requirement that
7 Texas school students say the pledge of allegiance to the
8 United States flag.
9 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Well, I'm not opposed to
10 that. You know, we can --
11 SENATOR WENTWORTH: It's not in the Code.
12 SENATOR HINOJOSA: We can take out the
13 prayer side and I'll be glad to vote for your bill with
14 just the pledge of allegiance to the United States of
15 America, our country. I don't have a problem doing that.
16 But what you've done, you've entered the
17 word pray into your bill, which is very different from
18 the original intent of just dealing with the pledge of
19 allegiance or a moment of silence.
20 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Senator, let me -- let
21 me ask you a question. I know this is my bill, but let
22 me ask you a question. What do you think -- If we pass
23 this bill and the Governor signs it, how do you reckon
24 we'll find out whether or not students are actually
25 praying after they say the pledge to the two flags?
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
11
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Several ways, Mr.
2 Wentworth. You're going to find, Senator, that kids are
3 kids; they're going to be making fun of each other if
4 they're from different religions, joking around.
5 But, more important, we again are going up
6 to the United States Supreme Court to deal with an issue
7 that's already been resolved, waste more money, waste
8 more time and more resources on an issue that continues
9 to be brought up again and again after the Supreme Court
10 has ruled no prayer in the schools.
11 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Senator, maybe you
12 weren't aware of the background of this bill. The
13 background of this bill came about as the result of my
14 reading a newspaper account last year of the United
15 States Supreme Court's upholding the Virginia statute
16 which allows those -- as a matter of fact, requires
17 Virginia students to reflect, meditate, or pray in the
18 Virginia schools.
19 And the U.S. Supreme Court had that case
20 before them and -- and did not strike it down; so I
21 thought, well, that's a good idea for Texas. That's
22 where it came from.
23 This statute, in essence, has already been
24 adopted in Virginia and already been reviewed by the
25 Supreme Court, and it's still in existence in Virginia,
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
12
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 and I believe it would be in the best interest of Texas
2 to also have it.
3 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Senator, let me -- let
4 me just tell you this: You've always argued for local
5 control. The present law allows for a minute of silence,
6 and this bill mandates from us telling each school
7 district, each classroom teacher what to do every
8 morning. And I'm opposed to your bill.
9 Thank you.
10 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Senator, let me just
11 respectfully say in response, we do a lot of things here
12 in the legislature that mandates certain things to be
13 done in those local school districts. They still elect
14 school district trustees, those school boards still set
15 their tax rates, but we set the curriculum statewide. We
16 test students statewide uniformly. There's no in and
17 out, discretionary, permissive sort of curriculum or
18 test.
19 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Our school districts are
20 supposed to be neutral when it comes to religion. You
21 pray at church, you pray at home, not in a public school
22 system.
23 SENATOR WENTWORTH: School districts still
24 will be neutral on religion even if this bill is passed
25 and signed by the Governor, Senator.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
13
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 Mr. President, I move to suspend the
2 regular order of business so that we can pass Senate Bill
3 83 on third reading.
4 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Senator
5 Barrientos, for what purpose do you rise, sir?
6 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Will the Senator yield
7 for a --
8 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Will Senator
9 Wentworth yield?
10 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Be happy to yield.
11 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: The Senator
12 yields.
13 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Senator Wentworth,
14 this bill sounds so right, so correct, so patriotic.
15 There's something about it that kind of bothers me, and
16 I'm not sure exactly what it is. Let me see.
17 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Does it sound --
18 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Let me just ask a few
19 questions.
20 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Does it sound like a
21 Republican bill?
22 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Well, I'm supposed to
23 be asking questions, Senator.
24 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I'll try to answer
25 them.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
14
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: In the moment of
2 silence later, I can ask about whether we -- the student
3 can contemplate being a Republican, a Democrat, his
4 girlfriend or -- et cetera, but we'll get to that later.
5 Tell me again why we need this legislation.
6 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Senator, I am not sure
7 that there are a lot of bills, maybe even most of them
8 that we consider on the floor that we really need, but so
9 long as 21 of the 31 of us believe it's in the best
10 interest of the state, we can pass them. This is one I
11 believe would be helpful --
12 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Are you saying we
13 don't need this bill?
14 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I didn't say that.
15 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Oh, well, what --
16 you're the attorney. What did you say?
17 SENATOR WENTWORTH: What I'm saying is that
18 I'm not sure that a lot of bills are necessarily needed.
19 I believe, though, this would improve the state of Texas
20 if we were to pass it and have it signed into law.
21 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Okay, but my question
22 is, Do we need this bill?
23 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Do we need this bill.
24 In order to inculcate patriotism and love of country and
25 loyalty to our students, I believe it would be helpful.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
15
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: By golly, I'm for all
2 those things you just said.
3 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Good.
4 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Now, how long have you
5 been in the Senate, Senator?
6 SENATOR WENTWORTH: This is my fifth term.
7 I had three two-year terms.
8 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Okay. Did you
9 introduce it in the first term?
10 SENATOR WENTWORTH: No, sir. This is the
11 first time I've introduced it because it was only last
12 year --
13 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Did you introduce it
14 in the second term?
15 SENATOR WENTWORTH: No, sir.
16 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Or third or fifth?
17 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Yes, the fifth. This
18 is the fifth.
19 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: This is the fifth.
20 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Right.
21 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: So that's -- what? --
22 ten, fifteen years?
23 SENATOR WENTWORTH: No, sir. I had three
24 two-year terms. This is only my second four-year term.
25 I've been here since '93.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
16
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: But you were in the
2 House before that. Did you introduce it in the House?
3 SENATOR WENTWORTH: In the House for five
4 years.
5 No, sir, because if you heard my colloquy
6 with Senator Hinojosa, I only read last year in the
7 newspaper about the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in the
8 Virginia case. That's when it came to my attention.
9 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Had nothing to do with
10 the fact that we're at war right now?
11 SENATOR WENTWORTH: No, sir.
12 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Okay.
13 SENATOR WENTWORTH: No, sir. As a matter
14 of fact, I prefiled this bill -- I think I did. Yeah.
15 Senate Bill 83, I prefiled this on the very first day we
16 could file bills in November of last year. It has
17 nothing to do with our invading Iraq a couple or three
18 weeks ago.
19 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Now, does this bill
20 have -- in any way prohibit students from -- let's say
21 other religions from taking advantage of the opportunity
22 to pray if they choose?
23 SENATOR WENTWORTH: If I understand your
24 question correctly, no, sir, it doesn't prohibit students
25 from praying.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
17
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: What if a student is a
2 Muslim and they are required through their religion to
3 kneel and do what they do? Will this bill allow that?
4 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I'm not sure what "do
5 what they do" means, but --
6 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Well, I mean, if you
7 get on your knees and you bend over like you see some of
8 them worshipping, that's what I mean. You know exactly
9 what I mean, Senator.
10 SENATOR WENTWORTH: No, I really don't,
11 but --
12 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: You've never seen a
13 Muslim pray?
14 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I don't know that I
15 have, no, sir, not being a Muslim myself and not ever
16 having attended a mosque. But -- But my guess is that
17 there's no prohibition, no specific prohibition in this
18 bill against kneeling or sitting. Presumably they would
19 still be standing because you stand when you say the
20 pledge to the flag, and I presume that they would still
21 be standing for the 60 seconds.
22 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: What if a religion
23 requires them to kneel or get on the floor? Will they --
24 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Senator --
25 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: -- be allowed to do
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
18
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 that?
2 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I'm not -- I'm not sure
3 that any of this is particularly pertinent, because I
4 think some teachers may say that if you wind up kneeling,
5 you may distract other students, and some teachers may
6 not allow you to do anything other than stand silently
7 for 60 seconds.
8 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Precisely, Senator.
9 SENATOR WENTWORTH: But this --
10 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Your legislation says,
11 does it not, each teacher or other school employee shall
12 ensure that the students remain silent and do not act in
13 a manner that is likely to interfere with another
14 student?
15 So what if a couple of the students are --
16 are Muslim or some other religion where they have to
17 kneel and all the other students start giggling at them?
18 The teacher's then going to have to say, All right,
19 everybody shut up here, we've got these students praying
20 or meditating or whatever they do in their silence.
21 Is that likely to occur? What's likely to
22 occur with those children?
23 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I truly cannot predict
24 that, Senator. I don't know. The teacher has a
25 responsibility for maintaining order in his or her
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
19
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 classroom, and my hope would be that students would
2 remain silent and there wouldn't be any reason for
3 disciplining or calling out or singling out any
4 particular student.
5 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Senator, talk to me
6 again -- I'm not going to go very much longer. We have
7 important business as well as this bill, if it's
8 important to you.
9 So tell me again. This idea of local
10 control --
11 SENATOR WENTWORTH: That was Senator --
12 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: -- shouldn't we leave
13 that up to the local school districts to decide if they
14 want to do this or not? Is this -- Is this mandatory, or
15 is it optional?
16 SENATOR WENTWORTH: It is -- It is
17 currently optional. Under my bill, it would be
18 mandatory.
19 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: It is mandatory. It
20 is not optional.
21 SENATOR WENTWORTH: That's correct.
22 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Therefore, as Senator
23 Hinojosa was saying, it is not local control that we love
24 to talk about, is it?
25 SENATOR WENTWORTH: It is not local control
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
20
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 in this instance.
2 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: It is not local
3 control?
4 SENATOR WENTWORTH: No, sir.
5 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Well, let me ask you
6 this, Senator: You've got a bill here that talks about
7 pledge of allegiance to -- and the caption is relating to
8 the pledge of allegiance to the United States and Texas
9 flags.
10 By the way, would you like to wager how
11 many people in this room today know the pledge to the
12 Texas flag?
13 SENATOR WENTWORTH: All -- All the
14 Republicans know it because we've been to so many
15 Republican Women's Club meetings -- Republican Women's
16 Club meetings, where they all know it. I'm not sure that
17 I knew it, Senator, before I started going to their
18 meetings, but, by gosh, I know it now.
19 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: I hope you're not
20 saying that Republicans love Texas more than Democrats.
21 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Absolutely not. I'm
22 just giving you --
23 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: I just wanted to ask
24 you and put you on the record, Senator.
25 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I'm confident -- I'm
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
21
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 confident --
2 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Would you accept an
3 amendment --
4 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I'm confident every
5 democratic senator here also knows the Texas flag.
6 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Well, we'll do some
7 wagering after while to see who knows what.
8 SENATOR WENTWORTH: It starts out, Honor
9 the Texas flag.
10 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Senator, Senator --
11 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Texas, one and
12 indivisible.
13 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: -- would you -- would
14 you accept a little old amendment here? You know, a
15 while back -- Let me tell you --
16 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I have --
17 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: -- a quick little
18 story.
19 I wanted to put my American flag outside of
20 my office and my Texas flag outside of the -- the door to
21 my office. And do you know -- did you know that the
22 Preservation Board of the -- that's supposed to take care
23 of this grand building owned by the people of Texas came
24 by and told me to take them down? Did you know that?
25 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I heard that, Senator,
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
22
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 yes.
2 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Well, Senator,
3 wouldn't you like to put a little old amendment on your
4 bill that would allow me as a senator, or Senator
5 Whitmire or Senator Gallegos to put an American flag in
6 front of their office? Wouldn't that be pertinent to
7 this bill?
8 SENATOR WENTWORTH: It's a -- It's a good
9 subject for a bill, and my understanding is there is one
10 already introduced that came to the Administration
11 Committee a few days ago. It was discussed.
12 I don't believe it would be germane to this
13 bill because this bill is amending the Education Code,
14 and I don't -- I don't believe flags in the Capitol
15 Building would appropriately fit in the Education Code.
16 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Well, I'm not going to
17 take any more time here; but, again, like I say, this
18 bill sounds so right, so patriotic, even religious, but
19 there's something about it. But I'm not going to take
20 any more time.
21 Thank you, Mr. President.
22 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I re- --
23 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Thank you,
24 Senator Barrientos.
25 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I reurge my motion to
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
23
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 suspend the regular order of business.
2 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Understand,
3 understand, Senator. If you'd -- If you'd bear with me
4 just a moment.
5 The Chair recognize- -- Senator Zaffirini,
6 for what purpose do you rise?
7 SENATOR ZAFFIRINI: (Inaudible.)
8 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Okay.
9 Senator West, for what purpose do you rise,
10 sir?
11 SENATOR WEST: Just a question of the
12 author.
13 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Will Senator
14 Wentworth yield?
15 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Happy to yield, yes,
16 sir.
17 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: The Senator
18 yields.
19 SENATOR WEST: Senator Wentworth, you and I
20 discussed this bill ad nauseam in -- in committee.
21 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I took an amendment.
22 SENATOR WEST: And you did. I just want to
23 make sure that -- specifically, that if a child decides
24 to pray, they have the ability to pray; is that correct?
25 SENATOR WENTWORTH: That is correct.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
24
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 SENATOR WEST: Okay. Now, when we say
2 pray, if that child customarily prays on his or her
3 knees, they will be able to do that during that
4 particular minute; is that correct?
5 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I'm not sure that that
6 is correct, Senator. My -- My answer to Senator
7 Barrientos was that if -- if that is not considered by
8 the teacher distracting to other students, then that
9 student would be allowed to do so.
10 If in -- If in fact it caused some
11 disturbance in the classroom -- My guess is that some
12 teachers may say that'd be fine and other teachers may,
13 if it's a distraction, ask them not to do that and to use
14 that 60 seconds to reflect or meditate.
15 SENATOR WEST: So then -- And, again, I
16 know we went through this --
17 SENATOR WENTWORTH: There's no -- There's
18 no prohibition --
19 SENATOR WEST: Hold on. Let me finish.
20 Let me finish.
21 I know we went through this in committee,
22 but we need to make sure we flush it out on the floor of
23 the Senate.
24 Are we now putting the teachers in a
25 position to tell a child how they can pray? Is this
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
25
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 particular bill doing that?
2 If a child normally gets on his or her
3 knees to pray and the teacher then turns around and says,
4 well, you can't do that because it's disruptive, are we
5 putting the teacher in a position that may violate the
6 constitutional rights of a -- of a child?
7 SENATOR WENTWORTH: The students do not
8 have a constitutional right to pray in --
9 SENATOR WEST: Well, a statutory right,
10 then.
11 SENATOR WENTWORTH: -- the school under
12 this bill.
13 SENATOR WEST: They have a statutory right
14 under this bill, though.
15 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Well, they have a
16 statutory right that's limited. So long as it is not
17 likely to interfere with or distract another student,
18 each teacher or other school employee in charge of
19 students during that period shall ensure that each of
20 those students remain silent and does not act in a manner
21 that is likely to interfere with or distract another
22 student.
23 SENATOR WEST: So then the teacher is --
24 SENATOR WENTWORTH: And it's impossible for
25 me to anticipate in every one of the thousand and fifty
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
26
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 school districts and all the individual schools what each
2 teacher may or may not do if --
3 SENATOR WEST: So then it's up to the
4 teacher to decide whether or not -- if a child decides to
5 pray on his or her knees, whether or not that is
6 distracting or interfering -- or interfere with other
7 students?
8 SENATOR WENTWORTH: My guess is if it's
9 done silently that it probably is not a distraction and
10 would not interfere with any other student's ability to
11 stand and reflect or meditate or pray.
12 SENATOR WEST: So you said your guess is,
13 or is it your legislative intent that if a child
14 customarily prays on his or her knees, then they should
15 be able to do that in the classroom for this one minute
16 that we're providing for in this particular statute, if
17 it becomes law?
18 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I would hope that would
19 be the decision by that teacher, but I'm not going to
20 make a blanket assertion and substitute my judgment for
21 that teacher's responsibility for maintaining order in
22 his or her classroom. I mean, the language is very clear
23 here in the law, and I would hope that they would follow
24 it.
25 If students are able to kneel while praying
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
27
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 silently and not distract the other students, then that
2 should be permitted.
3 SENATOR WEST: That should be permitted?
4 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Absolutely.
5 SENATOR WEST: Thank you.
6 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Yes, sir.
7 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Senator
8 Gallegos, for what purpose do you rise?
9 SENATOR GALLEGOS: Will the Senator yield?
10 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Will Senator
11 Wentworth yield?
12 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Yes, sir.
13 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Will the
14 Senator yield?
15 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Happy to yield.
16 SENATOR GALLEGOS: Senator, and -- and I
17 want to go back to some of the line of questioning that
18 Senator Hinojosa was asking, and -- and I'm looking under
19 the -- it says that the board of trustees shall, and then
20 we get down to -- to -- on the praying and the shall
21 reflect, pray, or engage.
22 Now, I guess what my concern here is, when
23 you were -- when you were debating with Senator
24 Barrientos, and a child decides to do this, under your
25 bill and is -- and is allowed to by the teacher or the
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
28
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 volunteer, you said you presume that the teacher or the
2 volunteer shall allow that student to a moment of
3 silence, of prayer. And when you said presume, that --
4 that stretches it a little bit, and it concerns me --
5 First of all, let me give you an example, what happened a
6 long time ago. When my mother was in school, if she
7 spoke any type of Spanish, she got spanked; and -- and
8 now she sits on the board of trustees of HIS.
9 I guess my concern is if -- if I go to a
10 corner, and let's say I'm in -- I'm in class, third,
11 fourth grade, and I'm in class and I go to a corner, once
12 I'm allowed under your presumption, under your bill that
13 that teacher, that volunteer is going to allow me, as a
14 third grade or fourth grader, to go to a corner and pray
15 in silence, what if I have a rosary or what if I have a
16 picture of Our Lady Guadalupe or what if I have -- the
17 Jewish faith puts the -- what is it? -- yarmulke on, and
18 I decide to put that on?
19 Now, let's go back to what you were talking
20 about, presume. Now, I'm not there in that classroom.
21 That teacher is, or that volunteer or that substitute or
22 that aide or whoever.
23 Are you guaranteeing me under this bill
24 that either that teacher, that substitute, that aide,
25 that volunteer is going to allow me to go to a corner,
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
29
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 break out my -- Our Lady of Guadalupe or my rosary and
2 then pray in silence, you know? Is that what you're
3 guaranteeing me under this bill, under the word shall?
4 Is that -- any one of those four is going to allow me to
5 do that?
6 SENATOR WENTWORTH: No, sir, I'm not going
7 to guarantee that.
8 SENATOR GALLEGOS: Well, then, I have a
9 problem with that, because if I'm the only one that
10 decides to go, under your bill --
11 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Well, I'd vote no,
12 then, Senator Gallegos.
13 SENATOR GALLEGOS: Well, that's probably
14 what I'm going to do, but I'm just telling you what can
15 of worms you're opening up here, because there's no way
16 you can guarantee that -- any of the school districts in
17 this state, that one of those teachers, volunteers,
18 substitutes, whatever you want to call them, is not going
19 to allow or -- won't allow or is not going to allow that
20 child to pray or their moment of silence or whatever they
21 want to do at the time they're given.
22 And that's my concern, because you could
23 have one of those in one of these school districts in the
24 state of Texas -- and I represent the largest one, HISD,
25 that that's going to happen under your own words with
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
30
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 Senator Barrientos, under the word presumption.
2 You know, how can I -- I presume that if
3 something comes out in Spanish that that teacher,
4 volunteer, substitute is not going to say something bad
5 to that student if he or she is silently or blurbs out
6 something in Spanish, a religious -- a religious word in
7 Spanish or Jewish or whatever, the other faiths. And
8 that's my concern under your bill, on presumption.
9 And -- And I'm like, you know, the pledge
10 of allegiance to the Texas flag or the American flag, no
11 problems. I just -- That presumption and what happened
12 to my mother a long time ago, I fear that that might
13 happen under your bill. I just wanted to point that out.
14 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Well, Senator, this
15 bill has absolutely nothing to do with anything that
16 anybody says in any particular language. It is not an
17 anti-Spanish language bill. That's -- That's as
18 farfetched as anything I can imagine.
19 It very clearly says that this is 60
20 seconds of silence. It says the school district shall
21 provide for that period of time, but it's up to the
22 student to decide for themselves, individually, whether
23 they meditate, reflect, pray, or engage in some other
24 silent activity that is not distracting to other
25 students.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
31
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 In regard to guaranteeing that every
2 teacher would allow every student that wants to go to a
3 corner, after they've said the pledge, to pray, I mean,
4 I -- if you extend that out, let's say you have a class
5 of 20 students and all of them want to go to the corner
6 to pray, I mean, that's going to be a problem.
7 Typically, at least the experience in
8 Virginia is all the students remain at their desk, in
9 place, for that 60 seconds after they've -- actually, I'm
10 not sure that they say the pledges in Virginia. But for
11 their 60 seconds of silence, they don't move around the
12 room. They stay at their desks.
13 So that's why I'm unable to guarantee you
14 that that would be treated uniformly among the
15 thousand-plus school districts.
16 Mr. Chairman, I -- I re-reurge my motion.
17 SENATOR ESTES: Mr. President? Mr.
18 President?
19 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Senator
20 Estes, for what purpose do you rise, sir?
21 SENATOR ESTES: Will the Senator yield?
22 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Will Senator
23 Wentworth yield?
24 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Happy to yield, yes,
25 sir.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
32
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 SENATOR ESTES: Thank you, Senator
2 Wentworth.
3 As I remember, when I was a freshman, I
4 came here and it said there's a time to speak and a time
5 to be silent; and I appreciate you yielding, but I assume
6 it's time for me to speak.
7 I don't want people to get the feeling that
8 there's only Democrats that have a problem with this
9 bill. Some people, astute political observers may say,
10 well, all those people that have spoken are way too
11 liberal for this bill. I want to go on the record as
12 saying I'm way too conservative for this bill. I've got
13 some real problems with it, because it's about freedom,
14 Senator. It's letting school boards and teachers have
15 the freedom.
16 Everything in this bill is a good thing.
17 The pledge to the flag is a good thing, the pledge to the
18 Texas flag is a good thing, a moment of silence is a good
19 thing.
20 But I worry. Senator Whitmire talks about
21 that chain gang. It's getting rather long here. And
22 little Johnny that's on Ritalin, that can only stay
23 silent for 45 seconds, may have to be on that chain gang.
24 So I just urge my conservative colleagues
25 in the Senate to realize that this -- this creates more
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
33
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 problems than it solves and that we need to look at this
2 and think of it very carefully and realize it's about
3 freedom and it's about our teachers having the freedom to
4 do what they need to do in classrooms and not about state
5 mandates.
6 Thank you, Mr. President.
7 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Thank you,
8 Senator Estes.
9 Senator Lucio, for what purpose do you
10 rise?
11 SENATOR LUCIO: (inaudible)
12 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Will Senator
13 Wentworth yield?
14 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I'm delighted to yield
15 to the whole Senate if they'd like to visit about this
16 bill. Twenty-eight of them have signed up in favor, so
17 I --
18 SENATOR LUCIO: Senator Wentworth,
19 obviously this is an emotional bill. It's a bill that --
20 that members have a difference of opinion on and a bill
21 that really shows us all that freedom of speech is still
22 working in our country.
23 I -- I for one, you know, agree, Senator
24 Estes, this is not a partisan issue. It should never be
25 a partisan issue of any kind.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
34
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 I -- You've heard me how many times say
2 that I was -- I was taught and preached Americanism.
3 I -- I wish I could amend your -- your bill to ensure
4 that there was a time during the course of a day that we
5 could teach our kids Americanism, patriotism. This would
6 be, obviously, a way to do that.
7 You know, earlier today -- and by the way,
8 I want my grandchildren -- to make sure that they go to
9 the public schools that -- that -- where they can stand
10 up and pledge allegiance to -- to the flag and that they
11 can have a moment of silence to be able to pray and thank
12 the American men and women that have come before them who
13 have made it possible for them to live in the greatest
14 country in the world.
15 We had POWs here and we all acknowledged
16 their patriotism, their heroics. They took a pledge when
17 they put that American uniform on to uphold the
18 principles and democracy that we stand for in our
19 country.
20 And I don't think you're asking for too
21 much here, Senator. I think it's a great step forward in
22 ensuring that we continue to be -- to come together as
23 one people in this country and not fragmented, you know,
24 people, not divided up in different religious beliefs and
25 different culture beliefs and different -- many other
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
35
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 things that I won't go into, to come together as an
2 American citizen. And I think this pledge will do that
3 because the words of the pledge are significant.
4 And to have a moment of silence really
5 gives an opportunity for our children -- regardless if
6 they're Catholic or Baptist or Methodist or Protestant or
7 Jewish, to have an a opportunity to pray just momentarily
8 to their God and to be thankful that they live in the
9 greatest country in the world.
10 This is a good bill, Members. There's
11 nothing wrong with this bill.
12 I support you.
13 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Thank you, Senator
14 Lucio.
15 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Thank you,
16 Senator Lucio.
17 Senator Wentworth moves to suspend the
18 Senate's regular order of business to take up and
19 consider Committee Substitute to Senate Bill 83.
20 All those in favor say aye.
21 MEMBERS: Aye.
22 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: All those
23 opposed say nay.
24
25 MEMBERS: Nay.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
36
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Vote aye,
2 vote nay. The Secretary will call the role.
3 THE SECRETARY: Armbrister, Averitt,
4 Barrientos, Bivens, Brimer, Carona, Deuell, Duncan,
5 Ellis, Estes, Fraser, Gallegos, Harris, Hinojosa,
6 Jackson, Janek, Lindsay, Lucio, Madla, Nelson, Ogden --
7 Ogden, Bivens, Ratliff, Shapiro, Shapleigh, Staples, Van
8 de Putte, Wentworth, West, Whitmire, Williams, Zaffirini.
9 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: There were
10 some loud nays. With 27 ayes and three nays, the
11 Constitutional rule is suspended. I'm sorry. The rules
12 are suspended.
13 The Chair lays out on third reading and
14 final passage Committee Substitute to Senate Bill 83.
15 The Secretary will read the caption.
16 THE SECRETARY: Committee Substitute for
17 Senate Bill 83 relating to pledges of allegiance to the
18 United States and Texas flags and to observance of one
19 minute of silence in public schools.
20 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: The following
21 floor amendment by Senator Whitmire. The Secretary will
22 read the amendment.
23 THE SECRETARY: Floor Amendment Number 1,
24 by Whitmire.
25 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: The Chair
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
37
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 recognizes the Dean of the Senate to explain the
2 amendment.
3 THE DEAN: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Members, if I could have your attention. I
5 think we've had a very healthy debate. I cautiously
6 voted with Senator Wentworth. But if you'll look at the
7 amendment that I have laid on your desk, it requires that
8 the Legislature two years from now will revisit this
9 subject.
10 I think it's one of the most important --
11 probably one of the more important discussions we have
12 had in terms of -- we're fixing to go into every
13 classroom in this state and require school
14 administrators, teachers, families to deal with a moment
15 of silence each day in public schools.
16 I'm as hopeful as Senator Wentworth that
17 it's going to be beneficial, but because I have watched
18 the debate and even heard from constituents about how is
19 this really, really going to work across the state of
20 Texas, in small communities and large communities -- Some
21 communities all think alike. Some are very diverse.
22 I think it would be very proper for this
23 body to require the Legislature to revisit this before
24 the end of the next legislative session or this act will
25 expire.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
38
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 It could be that we will have very positive
2 results, that students have learned respect for areas
3 that they did not respect before. On the other hand, we
4 could be bogged down in court challenges, Senator
5 Wentworth, we could be hearing from families that it's
6 disruptive, from school administrators that it just
7 didn't accomplish what we intended.
8 But I will join you in voting for this, but
9 I would ask the members to require this body to revisit
10 this; and if it's as good as some of us hope it will be,
11 we will reinstitute it, pass it again, probably under
12 similar discussions.
13 On the other hand, Senator Wentworth, if a
14 majority of Texans or through town hall meetings or
15 through discussions have told us you meant well, it just
16 is not as good as you thought, I would hope that you
17 would accept this amendment. If not, I'll leave it to
18 the will of the body, but I offer it in absolute good
19 faith that I will work with you to see how well it works,
20 support your legislation, and be back in two years to
21 join you again in passing it, because it's probably one
22 of the most sensitive things, Senator Wentworth, that we
23 will discuss. What do you do with your personal freedom?
24 How do you deal with a moment of silence when everyone
25 around you in the class is thinking about their faith,
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
39
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 their flag. And I just think something this important we
2 ought not to pass without knowing we want to revisit the
3 subject in two years.
4 At this time, I'll offer up the amendment,
5 Mr. President, and move adoption.
6 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: The Chair
7 recognizes Senator Wentworth on the amendment.
8 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Mr. President, I oppose
9 the amendment. Those words it expires June 1, 2005 could
10 be appropriately added to every single bill we pass here
11 on the basis that, well, let's see how it works for the
12 next couple of years, and if it works, fine, we'll come
13 back and we'll repass it. I think it'd be an enormous
14 waste of our time to do that.
15 Really, all we're saying in this bill --
16 the only thing that this is going to change in the state
17 is it's going to require those school districts that do
18 not currently allow for this 60 seconds of silence and
19 it's going to institute something that most all of us had
20 as we were growing up anyway, and that's the pledge to
21 the flags, of both the United States and Texas flags.
22 It's going to have a beneficial effect.
23 And this needs to be the law and it needs
24 to be the law effective beginning with academic school
25 year 2003/2004, without any expiration.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
40
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 If it turns out that there's some
2 horrendous result, which is not going to happen, Senator
3 Whitmire, we can very easily come back in two years and
4 repeal it, as we sometimes do with things that don't work
5 out. But we don't need to be putting a two-year
6 expiration date in this bill, and I would respectfully
7 suggest that we do not need this amendment.
8 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: The Chair
9 recognizes the Dean to close.
10 THE DEAN: Mr. President, Members, Senator
11 Wentworth, my language does not jeopardize your bill one
12 iota. It allows your bill to go forward. We get to see
13 how well it's implemented. We have expired legislation
14 before.
15 And I would -- I would beg to differ. I
16 don't think we're wasting time when we have a good,
17 healthy debate about what an individual's going to do
18 with their personal freedoms. I think it's a healthy
19 amendment, and if it's as good as you are claiming, you
20 could reinstitute it in two years. And I fully expect
21 that you probably will be able to do that.
22 At this time, I move adoption of the
23 amendment, Mr. President.
24 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Members, the
25 question is on adoption of the amendment. All those in
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
41
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 favor say I aye.
2 MEMBERS: Aye.
3 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: All those
4 opposed say nay.
5 MEMBERS: Nay.
6 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Vote aye,
7 vote nay. The Secretary will call the role.
8 THE SECRETARY: Armbrister, Averitt,
9 Barrientos, Bivens, Brimer, Carona, Deuell, Duncan,
10 Ellis, Estes, Fraser, Gallegos, Harris, Hinojosa,
11 Jackson, Janek, Lindsay, Lucio, Madla, Nelson, Ogden,
12 Bivens, Ratliff, Shapiro, Shapleigh, Staples, Van de
13 Putte, Wentworth, West, Whitmire, Williams, Zaffirini.
14 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: There
15 being -- There being 14 ayes and 16 nays, the amendment
16 fails.
17 The following floor amendment by Senator
18 Hinojosa. The Secretary will read the amendment.
19 THE SECRETARY: Floor Amendment Number 2,
20 by Hinojosa.
21 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Mr. President --
22 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: The Chair
23 recognizes Senator Hinojosa to explain the amendment.
24 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Thank you, Mr.
25 President.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
42
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 You know, Mr. President, Members, we talk
2 about a great country that we have, those of us who have
3 fought to defend our way of life, freedom of speech,
4 freedom of religion. If you look at all the turmoil that
5 goes on in the rest of the world, a lot of -- a lot of it
6 is about religion. We've got a lot of wars going on
7 because of religion.
8 And my amendment deletes the word pray from
9 your bill, Senator, leaves the one minute of silence, the
10 pledge of allegiance, the pledge to Texas.
11 I'm Catholic. My son is Jewish. When he
12 prays, he wears a yarmulke. And let me tell you, kids
13 will pick fights with him because he's Jewish.
14 And what you're doing is trying to bring --
15 a back-door way of bringing prayer to our schools. I
16 don't think that's right. Prayer belongs at home, in our
17 churches, in the synagogues, not in a public school
18 system.
19 Also what you're allowing to do is letting
20 the teacher -- letting the teacher be the judge in the
21 classroom of who is conforming -- conforming to this
22 statute in terms of prayer or not praying. The teacher
23 could be Jewish, could be Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist,
24 who knows, but it's a responsibility that we don't need
25 to place on our teachers, who already have enough to do
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
43
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 in trying to teach our kids how to be good citizens.
2 Mr. President, Members, I move adoption.
3 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: The Chair
4 recognizes Senator Wentworth to speak on the amendment.
5 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Mr. President, I oppose
6 the amendment.
7 The bill doesn't require your son or any
8 other student in Texas public schools to pray. There's
9 no requirement of praying.
10 But I want to give in statute a
11 recognition -- my guess is that in those schools that are
12 allowed and those school boards that do take advantage of
13 it allowed to have the 60 seconds of meditation or
14 reflection, we don't know what those students are doing
15 in that 60 seconds of silence, and my guess is that some
16 of them are already praying.
17 But it's not in the statute. I just want
18 to include it in the statute. They can still meditate or
19 reflect or do something else, but I'd like it in there.
20 And I'd like to point out, we begin each
21 session -- you know, I respectfully disagree, Senator.
22 You and I both served active duty in the military to
23 defend the very things we're talking about on the floor
24 right this minute.
25 But -- But I disagree, respectfully, with
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
44
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 you about prayer should only be at home and in the
2 church. Prayer can be wherever we are. We can pray
3 driving our cars, we can pray in school. In fact, we
4 open every session of this body in this chamber not with
5 silent prayer but in audible prayer.
6 In any case, Mr. President, I respectfully
7 urge a no-vote on Senator Hinojosa's amendment.
8 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: The Chair
9 recognizes Senator Hinojosa to close.
10 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Senator, while I agree
11 that we can pray in many places, our school districts --
12 our public school system are supposed to be secular and
13 neutral. And I think it's not realistic to think that
14 prayer would not be part of the agenda in many of the
15 school districts, forcing many students to be contrary to
16 their religion.
17 If you were to accept my amendment, then I
18 would really believe you when you talk about being a
19 patriot or that we're trying to teach our students how to
20 be good citizens.
21 The pledge of allegiance, the pledge to the
22 state of Texas, I don't have any problems whatsoever with
23 those, but by you allowing to leave the word prayer shows
24 that your intent is trying to bring prayer back in the
25 school system. This is why I oppose your bill.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
45
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Senator
2 Gallegos, for what purpose do you rise, sir?
3 SENATOR GALLEGOS: To ask a question of the
4 author.
5 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Will Senator
6 Hinojosa yield? The Senator yields.
7 SENATOR HINOJOSA: I yield.
8 SENATOR GALLEGOS: Senator Hinojosa, let
9 me -- I think that those of us -- And I agree with your
10 comments to Senator Wentworth. Those of us that have
11 seen discrimination, whether it be prayer, faith,
12 language -- and I've seen it, and I've seen it. My
13 mother's seen it before me. And I saw it in my first
14 year in the Houston Fire Department when my grandmother
15 called me and I had to -- she only spoke Spanish, and I
16 was told that I had to hang up because you could not
17 speak Spanish in the fire station.
18 But now comes -- now comes this bill on
19 prayer. Now, and I asked Senator Wentworth is there a
20 guarantee -- We're talking about public schools here.
21 We're talking about public schools. We're not talking
22 about private schools. I don't think it has private --
23 Does it have private schools? To your
24 knowledge, does it have private schools in here?
25 SENATOR HINOJOSA: No, it doesn't.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
46
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 SENATOR GALLEGOS: Does not have private
2 schools, okay. We're talking only public schools that
3 are regulated by the State of Texas; is that correct,
4 Senator?
5 SENATOR HINOJOSA: That's correct, Senator.
6 SENATOR GALLEGOS: Well, then I guess my
7 concern and my only (inaudible) because of what I've seen
8 in the past and what other -- other people, especially in
9 the Valley and those of us that grew up where we did,
10 inside -- inside the big cities, that Senator Wentworth
11 does not guarantee that that child is going to be able to
12 be praying as a Catholic or as -- of the Jewish faith or
13 Muslim, that he or she is not going to be ridiculed in
14 any way or they're going to be allowed to go to that
15 corner or at their desk and perform their moment of
16 silence for one minute, 60 seconds, whatever, without
17 being ridiculed, without being told, no, you cannot do
18 it. We're not going to do it. We're going to let these
19 people do it, but you can't do it. You know, there's no
20 guarantee under his bill that allows that child.
21 And that's my concern, Senator, because of
22 what I've seen in the past and what I see that might
23 happen in this bill. He might not see it. Maybe he
24 hasn't seen it in the past like you and I have. I've
25 seen it. It could happen.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
47
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 That's why he should allow -- he should
2 have allowed Senator Whitmire's sunset bill, but he
3 didn't. But that's what I see in the bill, and I support
4 your amendment for that very cause.
5 Those of us that have seen discrimination,
6 whether -- whatever, including prayer, including
7 religion, those of us that have seen it -- I think that
8 your amendment is appropriate for this bill.
9 SENATOR HINOJOSA: Thank you, Senator.
10 And I will end by saying that most of
11 the -- if you look at history, a lot of the wars we've
12 fought since the start of humanity were religion. So,
13 please, let's honor our principles of the freedom of
14 religion in our country.
15 And, Mr. -- Mr. President, I would vote
16 adoption of my amendment.
17 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Thank you,
18 Senator.
19 Members, the question is on the adoption of
20 the amendment. All those in favor say aye.
21 MEMBERS: Aye.
22 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: All those
23 opposed say nay.
24 MEMBERS: Nay.
25 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: The nays have
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
48
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 it. The amendment fails.
2 The Chair recognizes Senator Wentworth for
3 a motion.
4 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Mr. President, I move
5 final passage of Committee Substitute for Senate Bill 83
6 on third reading.
7 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: Senator
8 Wentworth moves final passage of Committee Substitute for
9 Senate Bill 83. This is a record vote. The Secretary
10 will call the role.
11 THE SECRETARY: Armbrister, Averitt,
12 Barrientos, Bivens, Brimer, Carona, Deuell, Duncan,
13 Ellis, Estes, Fraser, Gallegos, Harris, Hinojosa,
14 Jackson, Janek, Lindsay, Lucio, Madla, Nelson, Ogden,
15 Ratliff, Shapiro, Shapleigh, Staples, Van de Putte,
16 Wentworth, West, Whitmire, Williams, Zaffirini.
17 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: There being
18 27 ayes and 4 nays, Committee Substitute to Senate Bill
19 83 is finally passed.
20 Congratulations, Senator.
21 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Mr. President, Mr.
22 President, may I be recognized to make a brief
23 observation?
24 LEUTENANT GOVERNOR DEWHURST: The Chair
25 recognizes Senator Wentworth.
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
49
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I just want to make the
2 observation that the Senate's gone through, I think, a
3 very healthy debate and it was made possible by the
4 Senate following the Constitution and having second
5 reading yesterday and third reading today.
6 SENATOR BARRIENTOS: Senator Barrientos
7 moves for a moment of silence.
8 The President's desk is clear.
9 (End of transcription.)
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990
50
Transcript of Proceedings - CSSB 83
1 STATE OF TEXAS )
2 COUNTY OF TARRANT )
3 I, LEAH K. OSTEEN, Certified Shorthand
4 Reporter, duly qualified in and for the State of Texas,
5 certify that the foregoing Transcript of Proceedings
6 Concerning Committee Substitute of Senate Bill 83 was
7 transcribed by me from a Texas Senate Media Services file
8 indicating the date of the proceedings to have taken
9 place on 04/09/03, and that the Transcript of Proceedings
10 Concerning Committee Substitute of Senate Bill 83 is a
11 true record of the Texas Media Services file from which
12 it was transcribed.
13
14 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND OF OFFICE on this the
15 7th day of August, 2006.
16 ____________________________
LEAH K. OSTEEN, CSR No. 3916
17 Certified Shorthand Reporter
in and for the State of Texas
18 Certification expires 12/31/06
19 Osteen Reporting Services
Firm Registration No. 392
20 313 Northglen Drive
Hurst, Texas 76054-3024
21 (817) 498-9990 (telephone)
(817) 498-0410 (facsimile)
22
23
24
25
Osteen Reporting Services
(817) 498-9990