1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 10 TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE 11 OF PROCEEDINGS RELATING TO HOUSE BILL 1034 12 TEXAS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 13 MAY 3, 2007; MAY 4, 2007; MAY 23, 2007 14 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS were transcribed by Leah 23 K. Osteen-Dow, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for 24 the State of Texas, from an audio file provided by Mr. 25 Dean Cook, Esq. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 2 1 (Beginning of audio.) 2 THE SPEAKER: -- out on second reading 3 House Bill 1034. 4 Clerk, read the bill. 5 THE CLERK: HB 1034, by Riddle, relating to 6 the pledge of allegiance to the state flag. 7 THE SPEAKER: The Chair recognize Ms. 8 Riddle. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Mr. Speaker, 10 Members, this simply adds "under God" to our state 11 pledge. Move passage. 12 REPRESENTATIVE JONES: Mr. Speaker? 13 THE SPEAKER: Mr. Jones, we've got an 14 amendment here. Do you want to ask Ms. Riddle a 15 question? 16 REPRESENTATIVE JONES: Yes, please. 17 THE SPEAKER: The lady yields, Mr. Jones. 18 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I'll be happy to 19 yield. 20 REPRESENTATIVE JONES: Ms. Riddle, I wanted 21 to make sure we understood what the new pledge is going 22 to be. And do you have the bill analysis in front of 23 you? 24 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I can turn to the 25 bill analysis. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 3 1 REPRESENTATIVE JONES: Yeah. 2 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Yes, I can let you 3 know what the new pledge would be. I went around -- 4 there's over a hundred co-authored -- 5 REPRESENTATIVE JONES: Good. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: -- this bill. And 7 it -- 8 REPRESENTATIVE JONES: Do they know what 9 the bill analysis says that the new pledge is going to 10 be? 11 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Well, I can -- let 12 me turn to it here. It would say, Honor the Texas flag. 13 I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God 14 and indivisible; but I'm looking for the bill analysis. 15 REPRESENTATIVE JONES: I was reading the 16 bill analysis. It says to add the words "state under 17 God" immediately preceding the word "one," which to me 18 that's, Honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to 19 thee, Texas, state under God, one and indivisible. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: One state under -- 21 one state under God. 22 REPRESENTATIVE JONES: It says that "state 23 under God" is -- precedes the word "one." 24 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I believe that that 25 was corrected, but -- Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 4 1 REPRESENTATIVE JONES: Is -- I mean, it 2 says, Adding the words "state under God" immediately 3 preceding the word "one." Preceding means before, right? 4 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Yes. I would 5 accept a correcting amendment. 6 REPRESENTATIVE JONES: Well, I don't think 7 we can correct the bill analysis, but that's -- thank 8 you. 9 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Mr. Speaker, I 10 raise a point of order against further consideration of 11 House Bill 1034 under Rule 4, Section 32c2 of the rules 12 of the House on the grounds the bill analysis is 13 misleading. 14 THE SPEAKER: Bring your point forward, 15 Counselor. 16 Mr. Burnam temporarily withdraws the point 17 of order. Ms. Riddle moves to postpone -- postpone House 18 Bill 1034 to 11/01. (inaudible) objections. Here, here. 19 Mr. Burnam raised a point of order on House 20 Bill 1034 by Ms. Riddle. The point of order is 21 overruled. 22 The Chair lays out House Bill 1034. Clerk, 23 read the bill. 24 THE CLERK: HB 1034, by Riddle, relating to 25 the pledge of allegiance to the state flag. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 5 1 THE SPEAKER: The Chair recognize Ms. 2 Riddle. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Members, it's late. 4 We've been here a long time. This is indeed a simple 5 bill. It's adding "under God" in our pledge. 6 I was preceded with a point of order, so I 7 would now like to proceed to move that we accept this 8 bill. Move adoption. 9 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Mr. Speaker, would 10 the lady yield? 11 THE SPEAKER: Yield? 12 The lady yields. 13 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Thank you, Mr. 14 Speaker. Thank you, Ms. Riddle. 15 You know, it's a bill that doesn't have 16 very many words in it, Ms. Riddle. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I'm sorry. I 18 couldn't hear you. 19 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: It is a bill that 20 doesn't have very many words in it -- 21 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: It has three words. 22 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: -- but it is as 23 fundamental as when the pilgrims stepped on the rocks at 24 the founding of this nation, and I have a lot of 25 questions that I need answered. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 6 1 Do you know that in the bill analysis it's 2 stated that your bill will acknowledge our -- quote, our 3 Judeo-Christian heritage? 4 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Yes, sir. 5 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: I'm sorry? 6 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Yes, uh-huh. 7 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Thank you. 8 Are you aware that Native Americans that 9 lived on this land did not have a heritage based on 10 Judaism or Christianity? 11 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Yes. 12 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Are you also aware 13 that within the last few decades our country has become 14 vastly diverse in regards to culture and religion? 15 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: That is true, and I 16 think that we all understand that. 17 All this bill does -- 18 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Is it also true 19 that today we are citizens who are Buddhists, Hindu, 20 Muslim, Sikh, Bahai, Sorastian (phonetic), Wiccan, et 21 cetera? 22 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: What this bill 23 does -- yes, I'm aware of those things, and I think -- 24 but what this bill does is it simply replicates, it 25 mirrors our national pledge. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 7 1 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Ms. Riddle, are you 2 going to allow me to ask my questions? 3 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: It's very simple. 4 When you say -- 5 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Ms. Riddle, will 6 you allow -- 7 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: -- our national 8 pledge every morning, you say "one nation under God." 9 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Ms. Riddle, I 10 know -- 11 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: It's simply 12 stating -- 13 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: -- what the bill 14 says. I have other questions of you. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: -- "one state under 16 God." It is very simple. It is simply mirroring our 17 national pledge. 18 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Ms. Riddle, the 19 hour is late. Please let me ask the questions, and you 20 answer them as quickly and expeditiously as possible. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I'm sorry. 22 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Are you aware -- 23 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I'm sorry. I 24 didn't hear you. 25 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Are you aware that Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 8 1 there are 88 Buddhist congregations in Texas? 2 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: How many? 3 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: There are 88 4 Buddhist congregations in Texas. Are you aware of that? 5 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Yes. 6 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Are you aware that 7 there are 34 Hindu congregations in Texas? 8 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I was not aware of 9 that. 10 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: I can't hear you. 11 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I was not aware of 12 that. 13 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Are you aware that 14 there are a hundred thousand Muslims in the state of 15 Texas? 16 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Thank you for 17 informing us of that. 18 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Are you aware that 19 there are 13 Sikh congregations and even a (inaudible) 20 congregation in the state of Texas? 21 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: You've done a great 22 deal of research. Thank you. 23 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Do you think the 24 term "God" is acceptable description of the divine for 25 all of these people? Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 9 1 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I understand that 2 we do say "one nation under God" in our national pledge. 3 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Is it not true that 4 names, attributes and expectations to the concept of God 5 are different for each of these mentioned religions? 6 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I understand that 7 within the history and with what we have accepted as a 8 culture as a nation that we have in our pledge "one 9 nation under God." This simply mirrors that. 10 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Are you aware that 11 the governor has recently said, quote, freedom of 12 religion should not be taken as freedom from religion? 13 Do you agree with that statement, Ms. 14 Riddle? 15 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Would you repeat 16 that? I didn't hear you. 17 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Are you aware that 18 Governor Perry has recently said, and I quote, freedom of 19 religion should not be taken as freedom from religion? 20 And my question is, Do you agree with that 21 statement, Ms. Riddle? 22 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I would say amen. 23 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Additionally, are 24 you aware that there are eight million Texans that do not 25 specify any religious affiliation at all and that an Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 10 1 estimated one to two million of them are self-described 2 atheists? 3 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: That may be the 4 case, but are you aware that we have over 100 co-authors 5 and joint authors of this body here? 6 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Yes. And you're 7 trying to reverse the role. I will address that in a 8 moment. 9 Is it fair, then, to those individuals who 10 put, quote, "under God" into our pledge -- to any of the 11 people that I've asked you questions about, the last 10 12 or 12 questions, is it fair to these individuals to 13 impose this addition to the pledge? 14 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I would say that 15 if -- if the people who reside here in America and enjoy 16 all that we have and all that -- and what all that we are 17 based on here and also say our pledge, then that is being 18 part of an American. That is part of being this country. 19 We say "one nation under God" when we say our pledge. 20 This is no more, this is no less. 21 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Ms. Riddle, what is 22 the purpose of this bill? 23 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: The purpose of this 24 bill is very simple. It is to simply have our state 25 pledge mirror, if you will, or reflect our national Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 11 1 pledge. 2 Our national pledge says one -- "one nation 3 under God." I think it is altogether right and 4 appropriate for our state pledge to say "one state under 5 God." 6 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Are you aware of 7 the term "stare decisis"? 8 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I'm sorry? 9 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Stare decisis. Let 10 me spell it. It's s-t-a-r-e -- 11 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I'm sorry. It's 12 echoing in here. What -- was I aware of this -- 13 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: It's the term. Are 14 you aware of the term s-t-a-r-e d-e-c-i-s-i-s? 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You're not lawyers. 16 None of you are lawyers up there. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: No. 18 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: All right. I'll 19 admit the heckle in the background is pointing out that 20 none of you are lawyers; and I'm not a lawyer, so I can't 21 pronounce it well, and you don't know what it is. So 22 I'll tell you. It means that the Supreme Court does not 23 overturn precedents lightly, Ms. Riddle. 24 Do you know, Ms. Riddle, that the Supreme 25 Court disagrees with both our governor and with you? Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 12 1 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Are you trying to 2 say "precedents"? 3 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: No. Would you like 4 for me to spell the word again? 5 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I was just trying 6 to decipher what you were saying. I'm sorry. 7 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Let's just move on. 8 Do you know, Ms. Riddle, that the Supreme 9 Court disagrees with our governor and with you? Freedom 10 of religion does not mean freedom from religion. That's 11 what you've said and that's what our governor has said; 12 is that correct? Would you like for me to repeat the 13 question? 14 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Yes, please. 15 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Do you know, Mrs. 16 Riddle, that the Supreme Court disagrees with our 17 governor and with you? The Supreme Court says freedom of 18 religion does mean freedom from religion. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: That is your 20 opinion, sir. 21 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Justice Stevens, 22 writing for the majority in Wallace versus Jaffrey, 23 wrote, quote, the individual's freedom to choose his own 24 creed is the counterpart of his right to refrain from 25 accepting the creed established by the majority. The Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 13 1 majority you've referred to earlier. Moreover, the 2 individual freedom of conscience protected by the First 3 Amendment embraces the right to select any religious 4 faith or none at all. 5 Were you aware of that? 6 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Sir, I believe that 7 you're extremely articulate, you're extraordinarily 8 bright and well respected -- 9 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: But that's just one 10 example, Ms. Riddle. 11 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: -- and you are 12 giving a great deal -- you're giving a great deal of 13 information; but what I am telling you is every day when 14 we stand here on the floor of the House we do say our 15 national pledge. We continue to say "one nation under 16 God." 17 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Are you aware, Ms. 18 Riddle -- 19 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: And -- 20 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: -- that 21 simultaneous -- 22 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: And this bill is 23 simply to mirror or reflect "one state under God." That 24 is all. 25 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Ms. Riddle, are you Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 14 1 aware that simultaneous decisions by the Supreme Court 2 allowed us to keep the Ten Commandments on the capitol 3 lawn but forced a Kentucky courthouse to remove the Ten 4 Commandments? 5 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Do you see the 6 inscription above me here, sir? 7 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Ms. Riddle, could 8 you answer my questions? I'm at the back (inaudible). 9 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: And what is your 10 question? 11 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: The question is, 12 Are you aware that simultaneous decisions by the Supreme 13 Court allowed us to keep the Ten Commandments on the 14 capitol lawn but forced a Kentucky courthouse to remove 15 the Ten Commandments? 16 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: This is not about 17 the Ten Commandments, sir. This is about the pledge. 18 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Are you aware that 19 Justice Breyer, writing for the majority in the Kentucky 20 case, wrote the following: Quote, when the government 21 acts with an ostensible and predominant purpose of 22 advancing religion, it violates the central establishment 23 clause value of official religious neutrality. A purpose 24 to favor one faith over another or adherence to religion 25 generally clashes with the understanding that liberty and Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 15 1 social stability demand a tolerance that respects the 2 religious views of all citizens. 3 THE SPEAKER: Mr. Callegari raises a point 4 of order. The lady's time has expired. 5 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Mr. Speaker, I move 6 that the lady's time be extended. I'm trying to 7 establish a record for the Court. 8 THE SPEAKER: Vote aye, vote no, Members. 9 Thank you. Show Mr. Paxton voting no. Show Mr. Isett 10 voting no. Have all voted. 11 There being 48 ayes and 60 nays, the lady's 12 time is not extended. 13 Members, if anyone would like to speak for 14 or against, come down front. 15 Members, we've got an amendment that's 16 being scanned in. Just a moment. 17 * * * * * * * * 18 THE SPEAKER: Filing an amendment. The 19 clerk read the amendment. 20 THE CLERK: Amendment by Burnam. 21 THE SPEAKER: The Chair recognize Mr. 22 Burnam. 23 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Members, the line 24 of questioning I had was absolutely necessary to set the 25 stage and precedent for this amendment. It is a very Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 16 1 simple amendment. 2 The board of trustees of each school 3 district shall, one, ensure that students are not coerced 4 to participate in the recitation of the pledge of 5 allegiance under subsection b2 if her bill passes, and, 6 two, requires signs to be posted in each classroom near 7 the state flag that states a student may not be coerced 8 to participate in the resuscitation (sic) of the pledge 9 of allegiance under the subsection as listed before. 10 This proposed amendment is your vote on the 11 First Amendment and the right of any child to not be 12 coerced in participating in this pledge. 13 I ask the author of the bill to accept this 14 amendment as a friendly amendment. 15 THE SPEAKER: The Chair recognize Ms. 16 Riddle. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Mr. Speaker, 18 Members, I move to table this. I think that the bill is 19 very plain, it's very simple, and -- and common sense, I 20 believe, will prevail. 21 Move to table. 22 THE SPEAKER: The Chair recognize Mr. 23 Burnam. 24 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: I want to give you 25 an example of why this is a necessary amendment. I just Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 17 1 within recent days learned of a situation here in Austin 2 where a visiting professor at the University of Texas who 3 is from Mexico, whose son is in the West Lake Elementary 4 School, was -- has on several occasions been coerced into 5 and agitated to say a pledge of allegiance to the flag 6 that he has no allegiance to. 7 This amendment would clarify for every 8 school teacher in the state that neither a Mexican 9 national or someone who does not want to make the pledge 10 as proposed by Ms. Riddle would be exempted from this 11 pledge. 12 The teacher had no idea that the student 13 had the right to opt out. The student has the right to 14 opt out, and we need to clarify that and make it as a 15 part of law. 16 This amendment would require that every 17 school ensure that. It would end -- to this -- to that 18 end, the school board trustees must require that, and it 19 is the only decent and right thing to do rather than to 20 try to impose your religious perspective on any of the 21 students in our school system. 22 I ask you to vote no on the motion to 23 table. 24 25 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Mr. -- Mr. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 18 1 Speaker? 2 THE SPEAKER: Mr. Hochberg, for what 3 purpose? 4 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Would Mr. Burnam 5 yield for a question? 6 THE SPEAKER: Mr. Burnam yield? 7 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: I yield. 8 THE SPEAKER: The gentleman yields. 9 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Thank you. 10 Mr. Berman -- Burnam -- I'm sorry. 11 Whoever -- Lon, so you're -- you're providing an opt-out 12 for a student's -- 13 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Yes. It's obvious, 14 Scott, that this bill is going to pass on this floor. 15 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Sure. 16 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: What is not so 17 obvious is whether the Members are going to embrace the 18 First Amendment and the founding values of this country 19 and say every child has a right to opt out. 20 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Do you know -- 21 are you aware -- I know Representative Riddle spoke in 22 the bill analysis, I guess, or in her opening about the 23 Judeo-Christian heritage. 24 Are you aware that there are certain 25 adherents to the Jewish religion who believe that it is Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 19 1 sacrilegious, that it is sinful to speak the word "God," 2 and in fact -- or to write it, and in fact when they 3 write it, they will write something like G space D 4 because they believe in their religion? Their sincere 5 religious belief is that they should not speak that word. 6 And so should -- are we, by your amendment, 7 allowing those very devout, very religious students to 8 avoid violating their religious beliefs by adhering to 9 someone else's? 10 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Scott, while I was 11 not aware of that Judeo tradition or that element within 12 your tradition, it is certainly a really good example of 13 why every child should have the right to opt out and 14 every teacher should be taught about that child's right. 15 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Thank you. I 16 think you have a good amendment, Mr. Burnam. 17 REPRESENTATIVE JACKSON: Mr. Speaker? 18 THE SPEAKER: Mr. Jackson, for what 19 purpose? 20 REPRESENTATIVE JACKSON: The gentleman 21 yield? 22 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: I will gladly 23 yield. 24 THE SPEAKER: The gentleman yields. 25 REPRESENTATIVE JACKSON: Mr. Burnam, I'm Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 20 1 trying to figure out what this -- what this amendment has 2 to do with the bill before us. 3 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: This amendment is 4 very straightforward and has everything to do with the 5 bill before us. 6 If this bill had not been hoisted on the 7 children of Texas by a well-meaning person but 8 nevertheless misdirected, this bill would not be 9 necessary; but, in fact, there are many reasons why a 10 teacher needs to be instructed as to what can be expected 11 of the student. 12 A student should not be coerced to say the 13 pledge and certainly not indicate a faith preference in 14 what would -- is what she's advocating with this bill. 15 REPRESENTATIVE JACKSON: Well, I didn't 16 know this had anything to do with the Education Code. I 17 thought it just had to do with the pledge -- 18 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: I'm sorry. I 19 couldn't understand you, Mr. Jackson. 20 REPRESENTATIVE JACKSON: I didn't know we 21 were dealing with the Education Code. I thought this was 22 just about the Texas pledge. 23 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: I'm sorry. Would 24 you repeat your question? I wasn't able to hear you. 25 REPRESENTATIVE JACKSON: I didn't know this Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 21 1 had anything to do with the Education Code. I thought it 2 was just about the Texas pledge. 3 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: This is about the 4 Texas pledge being imposed on school children. 5 You may not have the history or the 6 knowledge to know that four years ago we forced this on 7 the school children of Texas and it's a mandatory part of 8 the daily activities in every Texas school. 9 REPRESENTATIVE JACKSON: Did you know that 10 right up above you it says "in God we trust"? 11 Representative Raymond, I believe it was, made that 12 motion earlier in the year and I didn't hear you object. 13 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: I'm sorry. What 14 did you say? 15 THE SPEAKER: Members, could we have some 16 order on the floor. 17 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: I believe Mr. 18 Jackson asked something about previous activity on this 19 house floor. 20 Mr. Jackson, I was one of two people that 21 voted against that because I believe it is wrong for 22 state government or any government to try to impose any 23 faith. 24 I was raised a Southern Baptist. The 25 Southern -- the Baptist came to this country and founded Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 22 1 Rhode Island colony. One of the reasons they came here 2 is to avoid religious oppression. 3 I'm a faith-based Quaker today. Three of 4 the 13 colonies were founded by Quakers because they were 5 trying to escape religion imposed on them by their 6 government. 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Will the gentleman 8 yield? 9 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: I'll gladly yield. 10 THE SPEAKER: The gentleman yields. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Representative 12 Burnam, did you know that it is already the Texas law 13 that you may opt out of pledging to the -- any allegiance 14 to any flag in the schoolhouse? 15 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: No. 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That you may opt out 17 of prayer? 18 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: I did not know that 19 that was the case, and it certainly wasn't my experience. 20 And what this amendment does is require them to post it 21 so every teacher knows it. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right. So it's a 23 good amendment, but I wanted you to know that it's 24 already on the books. 25 But did you also know that the Jehovah Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 23 1 Witnesses don't pledge to any flag? 2 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: That's correct, and 3 there have been a number of court battles over that; but 4 as we heard in previous discussion about matters of faith 5 in our schools earlier this -- in the last two weeks, it 6 is frequently the case that the teacher or the 7 administrator does not know how to implement the law. 8 And by posting this in the classroom, it will clarify our 9 commitment to the First Amendment. 10 THE SPEAKER: Time has been expired. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you. This is 12 America. Thank you. 13 THE SPEAKER: Okay. Members, the question 14 occurs on the adoption of the Burnam amendment. Ms. 15 Riddle moves -- moves to table. All those in favor of 16 the motion to table vote aye. All those opposed vote no. 17 It's a record vote. 18 Show Ms. Riddle voting aye, Mr. Burnam 19 voting no. Show Mr. Parker voting aye. 20 Have all voted. There being 89 -- 90 ayes 21 and 42 nays, the motion to table prevails. 22 The Chair recognize Ms. Riddle to close. 23 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Mr. Speaker, would 24 the lady yield? 25 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Mr. Speaker, I Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 24 1 close and I move adoption. 2 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Mr. Speaker, would 3 the lady yield? 4 THE SPEAKER: The lady has yielded the 5 floor, Mr. Burnam. 6 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Mr. Speaker, does 7 the lady not care to answer questions about her bill? 8 THE SPEAKER: I have no -- I'm not advised. 9 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Thank you, Ms. 10 Riddle. 11 THE SPEAKER: Members, the question occurs 12 on the passing engrossment of House Bill 1034. All those 13 in favor vote aye. All those opposed vote no. It's a 14 record vote. 15 Clerk, ring the bell. 16 Show Mr. Geren voting aye. Show Ms. Riddle 17 voting aye. 18 Have all voted. Have all voted. There 19 being 124 ayes, five nays, two present not voting, House 20 Bill 13 -- I mean 1034 is passed to engrossment. 21 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Mr. Speaker? 22 THE SPEAKER: Mr. Burnam. 23 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: May I request that 24 all the comments between Ms. Riddle and myself during the 25 discussion of this bill be reduced to writing in the Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 25 1 journal? 2 THE SPEAKER: Members, you've heard the 3 motion. Is there objection? Chair (inaudible). 4 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Thank you. 5 * * * * * * * * 6 THE SPEAKER: (inaudible) Chair lays out on 7 third reading final passage of House Bill 1034. Clerk 8 will read the bill. 9 THE CLERK: HB 1034, by Riddle, relating to 10 the pledge of allegiance to the state flag. 11 THE SPEAKER: The Chair recognize 12 Representative Riddle. 13 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Thank you, Mr. 14 Speaker. This is the bill that we passed last night that 15 puts "under God" in our pledge. Thank you. 16 THE SPEAKER: Representative -- 17 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Mr. Speaker? 18 THE SPEAKER: Representative Hochberg, what 19 purpose? 20 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Will the lady 21 yield for a question? 22 THE SPEAKER: Do you yield, Ms. Riddle? 23 The lady yields. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Yes. 25 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Thank you, Ms. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 26 1 Riddle. Thank you, Mr. -- thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank 2 you, Ms. Riddle. 3 I'm just trying to get clear in my own mind 4 because I'm going to have constituents ask me about my 5 vote, of course, one way or another. And I voted with 6 you last night. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Thank you. 8 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: And I expect to 9 vote with you today. 10 Tell me -- tell me why you picked out -- 11 you said last night that you were trying to essentially 12 conform our pledge to the national pledge. And if I'm 13 misstating what you said, please clarify that for me. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: No, that, I think, 15 is what I made very clear, that in our national pledge we 16 say "one nation under God." I felt like it was 17 altogether right and appropriate for us to have in our 18 state pledge that we would say "one state under God." 19 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: We also in the 20 national pledge, if I'm not mistaken, say "with liberty 21 and justice for all." 22 You didn't include that in your bill, I 23 don't believe. Was there some reason that you didn't 24 include that but you did include the "under God" part? 25 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: No. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 27 1 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: No? Would you -- 2 would you -- would you take a third reading amendment to 3 add "with liberty and justice for all"? 4 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: No. 5 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Because? 6 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I think that the 7 way we have it now, it reads smoothly. It says what we 8 wanted it to say. And I think that -- we voted on it 9 yesterday, and I think that we have a consensus that it 10 basically says what we want it to say, sir. 11 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Okay. So you're 12 trying -- but you're basically trying to pick up the 13 religious piece from the national pledge and just move it 14 down to our state pledge; is that fair? 15 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: What I said 16 yesterday is that it simply mirrors -- mirrors the 17 national pledge in that area. 18 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: It mirrors the 19 religious part of the pledge. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: This pledge is in 21 fact unique to Texas, and we're -- we're not trying to 22 replicate the entire pledge, but there are parts of the 23 pledge that I thought that we could put in it. 24 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: And why did you 25 think that that particular part was appropriate to Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 28 1 replicate rather than the other? 2 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: That is the -- that 3 is the part that I thought of. I didn't even think about 4 the other, sir. 5 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: And so why would 6 you be opposed to the "with liberty and justice for all" 7 part? Isn't that important, too? 8 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: We're in the third 9 reading, and -- 10 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: I just thought of 11 it. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: You just now 13 thought of it? 14 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: I did, ma'am. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: You just now 16 thought of it? 17 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: I did, ma'am. I 18 really did, just then. It was a little late last night, 19 ma'am. It really was. Had I thought of it then, I 20 really would have brought it up to you then, but I 21 didn't. 22 And so -- and so I guess what I'm trying to 23 understand, because I don't want to -- I don't want to 24 mess with the purpose of your bill, and I don't want to 25 put a point of order on your bill, or I don't want to do Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 29 1 any of that stuff. 2 I'm just trying -- if you're just -- if the 3 purpose of your bill is you're just trying to do the 4 religious part of it, I understand that. If the purpose 5 of your bill was to mirror the federal pledge to the -- 6 the pledge to the national flag, to the Star Spangled 7 Banner, then it's not getting that because you're missing 8 an important part. 9 And so I just -- I want it to serve 10 whatever purpose you said that you think it's supposed to 11 serve. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Well, I didn't 13 think of the other, but our pledge is unique to Texas, 14 and I think that we -- we have it the way we want it. 15 But next session, if you would like to put 16 that in it, then I welcome you to do that. 17 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Okay, but why was 18 this part a priority? 19 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I think I shared 20 that last night. 21 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Well, I'm sorry. 22 It was late last night, and it's hard to hear back here 23 and it's hard -- you have a -- you have a soft voice and 24 sort of a smooth voice. It makes it very hard for me to 25 hear back here, so -- Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 30 1 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Well, I'll tell you 2 what. I'm a horse woman. I live on 16 acres. I can 3 holler from my house to the barn and have all the horses 4 hear me. So I can raise my voice. 5 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: We should 6 probably -- we should probably do this without 7 microphones. I'd probably hear you better than with the 8 sound -- 9 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: It kind of -- it 10 kind of tends to echo; does it not? 11 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: I'm sorry. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Yes. 13 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Okay. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I think I made my 15 point very clear last night, and I think I've made my 16 point clear today. 17 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: And your point is 18 that the "under God" part is what you think is important 19 to move over? 20 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: That is what that 21 we put in there, sir. It mirrors the national pledge. 22 It's a very simple concept, and I really 23 feel like that it's being redundant to have to say that 24 over and over. 25 REPRESENTATIVE HOCHBERG: Thank you. I Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 31 1 never mean to make anybody be redundant. Thank you, 2 ma'am. 3 THE SPEAKER: Representative Hilderbran, 4 what purpose? 5 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: The lady yield 6 for -- 7 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Move passage. 8 THE SPEAKER: (inaudible) yield? 9 Representative Riddle, do you yield? 10 Representative Hilderbran, the lady has 11 yielded the floor. Anyone wish to speak for or against? 12 Representative Burnam. Mr. Bolton -- 13 Representative Bolton. Ms. Bolton. The Chair recognize 14 Ms. Bolton to speak against the bill. 15 REPRESENTATIVE BOLTON: Mr. Speaker, 16 Members, I wanted to vote -- to speak against this bill. 17 I am and have been a Baptist all my life, 18 and the concepts of religious liberty and the separation 19 of church and state are firmly engrained in every fiber 20 of my being. 21 In fact, the first version of our national 22 pledge of allegiance was written in 1892 by a Baptist 23 minister to celebrate the 400th-year anniversary of 24 Columbus coming to America. 25 It would have never occurred to him as a Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 32 1 Baptist minister to insert the words "under God" into a 2 pledge to a national secular symbol. 3 Roger Williams, who lived in the 1600s, is 4 widely viewed as the father of Baptist life in America. 5 He gave up a very powerful position in England and came 6 to the colonies fleeing religious persecution. 7 However, even in the colonies he faced 8 persecution because he wouldn't worship as the leaders 9 prescribed. In fact, late in his life he was banished to 10 an uninhabited island and expected to die there. 11 When, by God's grace, he prospered there on 12 that uninhabited island, the leader of the colony that 13 banished him sent him a scathing letter demanding to know 14 why he hadn't just gone ahead and died as expected. 15 Roger Williams risked everything for what 16 he believed. I have not been asked to risk as much, but 17 my belief in religious liberty is that it is worth 18 fighting for. 19 It would be very easy to vote yes on this 20 bill to avoid being seen as voting against God, but I am 21 very confident in my Christian faith and my relationship 22 with God, so I will be voting no on this bill and voting 23 for religious freedom. 24 Thank you. 25 THE SPEAKER: Mr. Hilderbran, and then Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 33 1 immediately preceding Mr. Hilderbran, Mr. Burnam. 2 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: Mr. Speaker, 3 Members, I rise in favor of this bill, and I just want to 4 share with the -- with the membership in the committee. 5 We worked on this bill a number of weeks. 6 We considered whether we were trying -- whether it was an 7 attempt to rewrite the pledge to the Texas flag or 8 whether we were just adding the words "God," and we 9 decided as a committee to keep it unique, to just adding 10 "God" and not rewriting the pledge. 11 And I'm slowing down here because Ms. 12 Thompson wants to ask me a question. 13 THE SPEAKER: Ms. Thompson, for what 14 purpose? 15 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Will the 16 gentleman yield? 17 THE SPEAKER: Mr. Hilderbran, do you yield? 18 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: I yield. 19 THE SPEAKER: The gentleman yields. 20 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Mr. Hilderbran, I 21 was listening to Representative Riddle's explanation for 22 the bill, and she said she wanted to mirror the national 23 pledge; and then when she was asked to put in "and 24 justice for all," which is in the national pledge -- I'm 25 a little baffled, since she wants to mirror the national Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 34 1 pledge, as to why she would leave that -- want to leave 2 that out and refuse to place that in. 3 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: I can't speak 4 for her specifically to that, but I can tell you that the 5 committee looked at it and we were even discussing 6 whether or not that we should keep the word 7 "indivisible," because, you know, the truth is, the state 8 does have the right to divide up (inaudible) from our 9 Texas history. 10 We discussed whether we should change some 11 other words and amend the bill, but we decided that we 12 were trying to follow the spirit of. 13 And the fact that "in God we trust" has 14 been brought up at the beginning of the session by 15 Richard Raymond, that in the national media the last 16 couple of years about whether we should keep God -- 17 "under God" in the national pledge and that we were 18 reaffirming that Texas -- that the state of Texas and 19 Texans believe in that and that we wanted our pledge to 20 have "under God." 21 And so we resisted making any other changes 22 and ended up passing our bill out as it was introduced. 23 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: But don't you 24 think Texas believes in justice for all? 25 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: I do. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 35 1 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Then why -- why 2 would we want to -- why would not we want to also 3 demonstrate "and justice for all"? 4 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: Had that been 5 raised -- had that been raised in the committee, which it 6 wasn't, and we raised -- we talked about different 7 things. We did not just kick the bill out. It stayed in 8 committee for at least two weeks and maybe more. And so 9 there was plenty of time for input to come to us, but it 10 didn't -- it didn't happen. 11 But we discussed whether we should amend 12 more than just this one thing the bill proposed do, and 13 we decided as a committee to only make that one change. 14 And that would be in her prerogative, 15 whether to accept that amendment; but we did discuss it 16 and decided at that time, without that idea being raised, 17 but decided after looking at other ideas that we didn't 18 want to make any change but add "God." 19 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: And, you know, 20 since God is a god of justice for all, I mean, why would 21 we want to have that associated with him? 22 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: I don't -- I 23 certainly wouldn't. 24 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Since it is -- 25 since it is in God whom we trust? Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 36 1 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: I do not 2 disagree with you. What I want to say, though, is, there 3 was a discussion about whether we should rewrite the 4 Texas pledge just a couple of years after we had just 5 introduced it to the school children of Texas and has 6 just now become a customary practice in schools every 7 morning to do the Texas pledge, just as we've added it in 8 this body as we open our session each morning. And we 9 just, quite frankly, learned it. 10 I mean, I remember the first few -- year or 11 so, first year or two that I was bringing my card with me 12 when I was at meetings that we did it so I would know it, 13 and now I've got it down. 14 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Representative 15 Hilderbran -- 16 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: -- just like I 17 got the national pledge down. 18 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Representative -- 19 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: And we 20 discussed that, and we said, well, maybe we shouldn't be 21 rewriting it. 22 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Representative -- 23 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: We just learned 24 it. And so we decided to add "under God" only, which we 25 thought would be easy to pick up on. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 37 1 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: Representative 2 Hilderbran -- 3 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: Yes, ma'am. 4 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: -- we ask 5 children to learn new things -- 6 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: Every day. 7 REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON: -- all the time. 8 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: Every day, yes, 9 ma'am. 10 THE SPEAKER: The Chair recognize 11 Representative Burnam. 12 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Mr. Speaker, 13 Members, justice for all, not a bad concept. One that is 14 inclusive of everyone, a phrase that we could ask every 15 student in every school to say without violating their 16 own religious convictions. 17 But we've seen today the real purpose of 18 this bill. It's not to create a parallel pledge, and 19 it's certainly not to promote justice for all. It is to 20 promote one religious perspective that is exclusive. It 21 is noninclusive, just like most of the prayers offered on 22 this house floor. 23 I can, on a regular basis, refuse to come 24 to this house floor until I know who's going to offer the 25 prayer and I know whether or not it's going to be Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 38 1 inclusive, but no school child has that same opportunity. 2 I simply want to close with my opposition 3 with two quotes from two Supreme Court justices. Justice 4 Stevens has said the First Amendment embraces the right 5 to select any religious faith or none at all. 6 And with regards to Ms. Riddle's enthusiasm 7 for the notion that a hundred of you have signed onto 8 this bill, I want to remind you of the words of Justice 9 Sandra Day O'Connor. We do not count heads before 10 enforcing the First Amendment. 11 I urge you to vote for religious freedom or 12 to remove the requirement that school children in Texas 13 have to say the pledge of allegiance to the Texas flag. 14 Vote no on this bill. 15 THE SPEAKER: The Chair recognize Ms. 16 Riddle to close. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Thank you, Mr. 18 Speaker. Move passage. 19 THE SPEAKER: First question (inaudible) 20 the final passage of House Bill 1034. All those vote 21 aye, all those vote no. Clerk, ring the bell. 22 Have all voted. Being 124 ayes, 12 nays, 23 two present not voting, House Bill 1034 is finally 24 passed. 25 THE DOORKEEP: Mr. Speaker? Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 39 1 THE SPEAKER: Mr. Doorkeep, for what 2 purpose? 3 THE DOORKEEP: I have a messenger from the 4 Senate at the door of the House. 5 THE SPEAKER: Admit the messenger. 6 Sir, I want to know, is the Senate meeting 7 today? 8 SENATE MESSENGER: Yes, sir. 9 THE SPEAKER: Great. 10 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Mr. Speaker? 11 THE SPEAKER: Mr. Burnam, for what purpose? 12 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: May I request the 13 remarks between Representative Hochberg and 14 Representative Riddle be reduced to writing and the 15 closing comments be reduced to writing in house journal? 16 THE SPEAKER: Members, you've heard the 17 motion. Is there objections? Chair hears no objections. 18 REPRESENTATIVE BURNAM: Thank you. 19 THE SPEAKER: The Chair recognize Mr. 20 Hughes for recognition. 21 REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES: Thank you, Mr. 22 Speaker. 23 Members, visiting with us today in the east 24 gallery are some folks I want to draw your attention to. 25 Many of you have met Sarah Fox, who's been an intern in Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 40 1 our office this session. Sarah's about to graduate from 2 Southwestern University and going to law school, getting 3 married this summer. She's here with -- and she's also a 4 former Miss Dallas, by the way. She's here with her 5 mother, Karen Fox, who's a teacher at Quitman Elementary 6 School. 7 Would you guys please stand so we can 8 recognize you. 9 Members, please help me welcome my friends 10 from my home county. 11 * * * * * * * * 12 THE SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes Ms. 13 Riddle. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: I call up House 15 Bill 1034 with senate amendments. 16 THE SPEAKER: Chair lays out House Bill 17 1034. 18 Clerk, read the bill. 19 THE CLERK: HB 1034, by Riddle, relating to 20 the pledge of allegiance to the state flag. 21 THE SPEAKER: Chair recognizes Ms. Riddle. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Members, if you 23 remember, we added "under God" to our state flag. The 24 Senate added just one word. Let me tell you the final 25 version. Honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 41 1 thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible. 2 That's it. 3 I move to concur. 4 THE SPEAKER: Ms. Riddle moves to concur 5 with the senate amendments for House Bill 1034. It is a 6 record vote. And will the clerk -- clerk, ring the bell. 7 Show Ms. Riddle voting aye. Show Mr. 8 Eiland voting aye. Show Mr. Naishtat voting aye. 9 All members voted? All members? 10 There being 142 ayes, one nay, one present 11 not voting, House Bill 1034 is finally passed. 12 The Chair recognizes Mr. Keffer. 13 MR. KEFFER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I 14 call up House Bill 1921 with a senate amendment. 15 (End of audio.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 42 1 STATE OF TEXAS ) 2 COUNTY OF TARRANT ) 3 4 I, LEAH K. OSTEEN-DOW, Certified Shorthand Reporter, 5 duly qualified in and for the State of Texas, certify 6 that the foregoing transcript was transcribed by me and 7 that the transcript is a true record of the proceedings 8 on the audio file provided to me. 9 I further certify that I am neither counsel 10 for, nor related to, any party in this cause and am not 11 financially interested in its outcome. 12 13 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND OF OFFICE on this the 23rd 14 15 day of October, 2007. _____________________________ 16 LEAH K. OSTEEN, CSR No. 3916 Certified Shorthand Reporter 17 in and for the State of Texas Certification expires 12/31/08 18 Osteen Reporting Services 19 Firm Registration No. 392 313 Northglen Drive 20 Hurst, Texas 76054-3024 (817) 498-9990 (telephone) 21 (817) 498-0410 (facsimile) 22 23 24 25 Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990